Do YOU still believe in Tony?

[JoolsToo]

Just been watching BBC2 - just wondered what MNers thoughts were on our Prime Minister ....

Twinkie - don't think you can say 'whiter than white' A colleague at work was asked by a black colleague if he wanted a coffee - he said 'yes please, white, one sugar' to which the retort came - I think you mean, 'milk, one sugar' FFS!

perhaps some MNers would feel a little differently about TB if their children were about to enter university and a life of debt (didn't he promise no tuition fees)

My political views come from thinking about how we are going as a society and are not just a projection of my own interests. I'm sure that's true of many of us. I have paid to put one foster, step-daughter through 4 years of uni and am about to help put her sister through another 4 years. I also think that university students should pay for their education.

agree with most of the criticisms of the current govt. Yet I still feel the Tories were worse.Interesting prog on Radio 4 this morning about how Thatcher set about deliberately starving the Arts ( esp fringe arts groups - orchestras, theatre groups etc) of funds as she thought they were ' awful'. And Norman Tebbit admitted he deliberately wound up the ' radical Left' just for the hell of it.What a git. Anyway, The most abiding memory I have of my teens was of things being closed down and/or demolished :factories,hospitals,schools,you name it. The tories smashed the Unions and gave loads more powers to private Landlords- viva Van Hoogstraten.They massively cut schools spending and made class sizes bigger.Everything was privatised and our rail system has never recovered. The shareholders were all that mattered. And during all this Thatcher was in bed with Ronald Reagan who invaded just about every central American country I can name and some of the ones I can't. I still hate them and always will.So there you go Jools Too - my reasons.Just a few.

University students have always paid for their education via a progressive tax system, OldieMum. And why should they pay extra for higher education? Why not make them start paying for secondary education? The argument that graduates get higher paid jobs than the rest of the population is no longer true and will become less so as more people become graduates. In the words of Gilbert and Sullivan, "when everyone is somebody then no-one's anybody" and when 50% of people in this country have degrees, a degree is no longer a guarantee of a higher income, it's just a way of disadvantaging those who haven't got them. Sorry, a bit off topic I guess.

and again - didn't he promise 'no tuition fees'?

smashed the Unions? yes and thank god for that!

Love or hate Margaret Thatcher (who incidentally had 3 LANDSLIDE victories so she couldn't have been doing that badly) most people agree - even the Socialists I know - that you always knew where you stood with her - she said what she meant and she meant what she said - that definitely cannot be said of TB!

JoolsToo, she had 3 landslide victories with a minority of the popular vote, because of our first past the post system. The majority of voters voted against the Tory Party in each of the elections she won.

Meanbean - I don't want to hijack this thread, but the argument that graduates pay for their university education through general taxation doesn't stand up. There is a huge shortfall in university funding, as those of us who teach in this sector know all too well. It has to be made up in some way. People do not seem to be prepared to accept much higher taxation to plug this hole, so somebody has to pay for it. Graduates still get a significant earnings premium (I'm speaking about graduates as whole, of course, there will be exceptions). I really don't see why the young woman who will cut my hair later today should pay for middle-class students to go to university. The vast majority of students are middle class and the grants system was a middle-class subsidy. Of course, the issue of deterring working class students from going to uni matters, but that should be managed through a bursary system.

Sorry, I just believe that education is one of those services which should be free at the point of demand, and that taxation should be progressive. I also don't see why a graduate who goes into something socially useful, like teaching or nursing, who gets paid less than a non-graduate in media sales, should be lumbered with an enormous debt. I don't think bursaries solves this problem, the only thing that solves it is the tax system. And that means ensuring that graduates who take low paying jobs do not have to pay back the same level of education fee as graduates who take high paying jobs.

A lot of people like to moan about the fact that we are paying more indirect taxes but at the same time they complain about the state of public services. They always compare our services to those of France, Germany, Swedan etc without admitting that these countries have well funded public services because their people pay more taxes than we do. People in this country seem to think that you can get something for nothing - well you can't. Our public services were underfunded for 18 years under the Tories. Do you really think you can turn that around overnight? At least Labour are putting in the money. What is needed is better management of how the money is spent and for many of the prima donnas e.g. hospital consultants, poor teachers, to accept that working conditions have to change to ensure better productivity and value for money.

I disagree with a number of things that TB has done, e.g war in Iraq, but he is a talented politician and a hard working Prime Minister. I believe that he raised the profile of Great Britain for the better prior to Iraq; where we stand now only time will tell. Under Labour, we have progressive social policies such as improved maternity and paternity benefits, minimum wage, tax credits etc. I would like to see free higher education but somehow we have to pay for it. Are we willing to pay more taxes for this?

Michael Howard makes me want to vomit. John Major's Back to Basics campaign sums up the Tories- bunch of hyprocrites who are incapable of keeping their pants on. Thatcher hated women and as a failed scientist, did nothing to promote the advancement of science and technology in this country.

I do not want to see this country return to boom and bust. Do I want to see Oliver "What a Twit" Letwin as Chancellor? Pass me the smelling salt please.

no. don't believe in him. iraq just the worst most heinous thing (saw ds lookalike being lifted from rubble in fallujah on news yesterday and was like knife twisting in my guts). he must go.

will vote libdem.

conservatives are despicable (howard is nosferatu) their thinly veiled racism, xenophobia, homophobia etc etc make them a non-option imo.

Meanbean, try to get lower taxes for public-sector workers past the Daily Mail

Think we should up the taxes to pay for decent health care, education, pensions, low cost housing stock and local services (inc. transport) for all. All childcare should be paid for by the government and the SAHMs should be paid a decent wage too! Scrap tuition fees, dump the useless college courses, introduce a massive number of government funded apprenticeships for the trades instead. Oh and abolish quangos and do something serious to reduce this country's contribution to global warming. That'll do for today.

Cab for PM

Never did believe in TB and give me five minutes with John Prescott - the man really winds me up.

I don't mind paying more tax if its used properly - not to fund illegal war or pay more NHS manager.

Joolstoo, I'm glad I belong to a union. I had a dispute with my boss over part-time working, went to the union and got excellent help. It turned out that my boss was making up the employer's policies as he went along and the HR department told him to treat me properly. Was that a bad thing? Should each employee have to negotiate directly with their employers? People fought for centuries to get the right to combine in a union.

Ooooohhh I don't mind paying more taxes if it is spent properly either but if I were to put on here just what I don't want it to be spent on I would probably be hunted down and shot!!

go on Twinkie - I don't think we should be subsidising farmers so you can shoot me for that. (But I know that that's one for Brussels.)

No I have already ranted on heer about certain things which I know upset some people - lots of it to do with me being one of Thatchers children really and believing that people should go to work and earn a crust and you do not have a choice not to!!

I don't think we should be subsidising private schools.

Are we? I'm not sure I agree with that mean beam - in fact as the private sector is reducing the strain on the public sector I wonder sometimes if they should perhaps be paid more (if they're doing a good job)to re-introduce the assisted places scheme so if there is a good school around anyone can aim for it. (Doesn't seem fair to pay taxes for education and then pay again for private school if local schools are all worse than c**p - but I'm open to persuasion on this one.).

The solution is to make all schools good!

We pay people who are unemployed and in a lot of cases, many of them have no intention of ever working. People who want to better themselves through education are not offered anything. These same people will probably earn more than the average salary and therefore, pay more in taxes. If we can pay people income support for doing nothing, we can pay people some allowance towards their education and if it means a penny on income tax, I will happily pay it, provided it is spent correctly.

I also believe that anyone earning over £100k should pay a higher rate of income tax over of 50%. The rate at which 40% tax is paid should also be raised to something like £45k - it is too low at the moment IMO. We should not pay tax on the first £5200 earnt either, not when you consider that the average salary is £25k and £5200 equates to £100 pw before tax. All the tax loops that the wealthy use to avoid paying taxes should be closed and anybody who deliberately avoids paying tax should lose their right to vote as well as other state benefits such as free treatment on the NHS.

Agree meanbeam, but that's going to take a few decades. Think more emphasis on basic manners etc at playgroups (cos some parents just aint capable) might help in terms of reducing disruption and therefore improving all schools.

Uhu, agree with most of what you say and am pleased at least one other person is speaking up for Tony Blair.
He is, in my eyes, a great leader and an outstanding politician.
I am sick and tired of the slating he gets, and am very surprised at the opinions voiced on here.
Whatever you say / think about Iraq, it is just too easy to blame TB. Yes, in hindsight the majority would say that it was not the best decision. But that's the beauty of hindsight isn't it?
I find it infuriating to claim that Tony Blair is a liar. There is no evidence at all to back up this claim and that has been proved over and over.
Tony Blair answers all questions put to him and he does so clearly, eloquently and intelligently. He talks sense. He may not give the best speeches I've ever heard but put him on the spot and he is exceptional.
Of all the leaders of the last 40 years or so, he has the most society-conscious vision and the most ability.
We should be proud to have him as our leader. I feel that many people are forgetting how many dreadful prime ministers / presidents / dictators there are in the world today. Tony Blair is far more gifted.
It is easy to say he has reneged on promises made, but have we forgotten the promises he has fulfilled?
The eighties saw the loss of our manufacturing industry and we suffered years of our public services being undermined. Yet our economy is bouyant, unemployment is very low and we are moving in the right direction. You can't turn round 18 years of neglect overnight.
Incidentally, the Bigley brother in Liverpool is losing my support. Who the hell is he to call for Tony Blair's resignation and claim he is "past his sell-by-date"? Ken Bigley is in an awful situation, don't get me wrong, but HE chose to work in Iraq, and live OUTSIDE of secure zones. How the hell is his abduction TB's fault? How the hell do you / why should you negotiate with terrorists WHO AREN'T EVEN FROM IRAQ willing to chop off people's heads?
I think my red colours are showing through!

I disagree with this simplistic idea (which I notice the LibDems have dropped) of a penny on income tax to pay for education. A penny on income tax when you earn £8,000p.a is a hell of a difference than if you earn £60,000p.a. It has a disproportionate effect on low earners and has never been a coherent or fair policy. I'm glad they've dropped it, it was silly.

Why don't we all try a thought experiment? Imagine that someone has told you that you are going to live in a society and that you can choose how it should work (in terms of how wealth is distributed, what the tax system looks like, how services get funded, whether people can join unions etc etc). The catch is that you don't know in advance what your social position will be, so you could be at the top or right at the bottom. What arrangement would you choose? John Rawls, a philosopher who died this year, thought this up and argued that when we say that an arrangement, or set of rules is fair, this is actually what we mean. I' ve just been writing about it for a lecture and wondered what julestoo, meanbean and all the rest would come up with.