Slagging Off The Childcare Gurus

[susanmt]

I'll not start it, I just created the thread!!

hi scummy, as so often happens i think you have hit the nail on the proverbial! one of the reasons i find it so difficult to understand why these discussions can get so heated is that fundamentally people are completely in agreement about the ends they want to achieve, a happy (deliberately avoiding use of the word contented ) and healthy baby - but they are disagreeing about the means. to me it is so obvious that mothers choose an approach which creates a comfortable psychological space for themselves in which they can cope with the demands of motherhood - as you say for some this will entail going with the flow, for others this will mean routine and structure. the implication that i don't put the appropriate emphasis on my baby's needs is so hurtful. you would think i would have developed a thicker skin about this by now - but i haven't.

"the implication that i don't put the appropriate emphasis on my baby's needs is so hurtful."

Bossykate, if this is aimed at me then I am truly sorry. If this is what came across it's certainly not what was intended. It's so difficult to get the tone right on here

Hi Ionesmum. Have you dipped into Libby Purves' "How not to be a Perfect Mother" at all? She found the hippy trippy tiny babe followed by boot camp at 6 months pattern worked with her babies too! I felt the need for routine definitely came to the fore at about that age too.
In fact I'd really have few if any problems with GF if her routines didn't start at such a very early stage- 2 weeks, IIRC. I must admit I'm still not really convinced that routines really work at that age, though, as I said earlier, a feeling that there is a strategy in place can make people more confident and that's great... I think that all these gurus often get a whole lot of undeserved credit for a baby's quite natural development, however. (eg:when at 4 months the baby's colic disappears after 3 cranial osteopathy sessions the parents hail a miracle instead of remembering that most colic DOES pass by this age. eg2: when baby starts sleeping through at 3 or 4 months this is put down to the routine from birth or, conversely, the hippy trippy attitude from birth when actually a large number of babies just do start sleeping through at this age regardless of routine.)

bossykate- chin up! even if such implications are intended- and I think that they are more often the result of people getting a bit carried away with their arguments and forgetting to think things through, certainly in my own case- they are patently NONSENSE. mostly a result of people finding it hard to put themselves in another's shoes due to the differences in approach that we've agreed may be partly or largely personality based, ime.
p.s. i have written this paragraph without capitals (apart from NONSENSE) in your honour because i hate to think of all this ranting upsetting you.

mm - following on from scummymummy's usual style of cheering message - have to say I agree about babies changing their behaviour at intervals for no particular reason and how you just can't say it's because of a, b or c...I had Libby Purves too and also one by Katharine Whitehorn, published in 1975, which I reread this morning (just for fun - it is SO NICE not to have to worrry about babies any more!) which has an enormous amount of pure common sense in it.

Anyway, to reiterate what various people have said at various times in this thread (and others), if a theory works for you, and you and your baby are happy with it, then go with it and sod everybody else. Although it feels like forever when you're in there, with a whingey grumbly little person, it really doesn't last long compared with the rest of their lives so just do what suits you!

I think that different personalities are part of it, but also a difference in what we expect/want our children to be like, how we expect them to function (as far, of course, as you can expect or influence this).
A friend of mine I see occasionally, she doesn't live very close, is really into CLBB. She has followed the routines from day 1 and is exceptionally happy on it, and so is her little boy ... as long as the routines are followed to the minute - at over a year old he still cries if his tea is delayed 10 mins and is grumpy if inadvertantly kept up till 7.15. She doesn't mind, in fact she once said to me, in disbeleif when I once again rejected her offer to explain it all in more detail 'Don't you WANT your children to be in a predictable routine??'
No. I don't. In fact, given the fact that I live in a very remote. rural part of the country, that when we go out we usually can't get a babysitter and need to take the kids with us and bed them down at someone elses house, that if I need to go out I rely on buses which have totally different timetables on Mon, Wed and Fri than they do on Tue, Thu and Sat, that anyway I like to be quite free and easy and wouldn't want to have to cut short lots of fun for a nap, and maybe because I am so disorganised that a child that was demanding food at exactly the same time each day would end up going hungry (if I feed them between 5.30 and 6 I am doing well) - well, because of all of this (dunno what happened to my sentence!!LOL) the trait I value most (after happiness) is flexibility, and routine would be a killer.
Different strokes for different folks, as long as our kids are happy and healthy, as someone said, then good enough! It's the insistence that one way is RIGHT and every other way is WRONG that gets my goat.

Yes - I'm with you when you say that it's different strokes for different folks. Your own childhood memories, your personality, your circumstances (whether you work or not, what time you get home in the evening), your childs personality all these things (and others I'm sure) impact what choices you make for your children... There are pluses and minuses for them all. I read heaps of different books - loved some, and liked others less (although think I got something from all of them.)

It's incredible, the passion people feel about this - I really couldn't care less how my friends (virtual or real )or family bring up their kids. (Unless the children were being abused which I am very thankful has never been the case.)

KS - did you mean to imply that children in routine could grow up psychologically unsound? I laughed out loud when I read that ) You said, "I don't quite know what proof there is that Gina Ford's et als' methods produce psychologically sound contented little babies...?" If you didn't mean it to be funny, it could be quite insulting for the Mums on this board that choose to use routines...

Is this thread still going? Just checking in from New Zealand to see what mums back home are talking about and have wet myself reading all of this! Great stuff - are you all friends again now?

On the subject of GF - her book saved my life as I was about to be carted off to the funny farm by men in white coats at 10 weeks. No sleep had been had in that time (tops 2 hours at a time day or night and followed by least 2 hours of screaming). Sadly I had not bonded with my ds at all and resented everything about him (I know - what a bad mother!) By 16 weeks ds was sleeping twelve hours and although on antidepressants I was coping and more importantly I was bonding with him. I felt in control which no other book or HV did for me.

What I did not do was rave about the book to my friends because I could see that everyone had their own way of doing things - surely that is what being a human is all about?

HOWEVER...strangely, at two years ds started waking several times a night and eating at wierd times of the day. Even more strangely, although I am knackered I don't really mind! I used to be obsessive about my routines and now I couldn't give a monkeys! I love every minute of being a mum and love everything about him - even his tantrums!

Perhaps I needed GF at the time but now I am well it is not so important?

He was always a very clingy baby - does anyone think that the strict routine could have done that? He is now 2 and 9 months and is much more relaxed but then so am I!

I agree with the opinions on Suzanne Olivier (what a load of tosh!) and Annabel Carmel (who has the time?) but quite liked bits of PL, Vicki Irvinge and Dr Spock.

Also I can't stand it when writers knock those who give up breastfeeding early. Surely in this day and age it is great to have the choice? Face it, some of us HAVE to give up even though we don't want to (I cried buckets when I had to give up) and some support and understanding would be better than being told that you are damaging your child for life!

Keep writing girls (and any boys out there!) ...

I disliked the book Three Shoes, One Sock and No Hairbrush (or something like that). Written about having your second child. I was in the early stages of pregnancy with DS2 and reading this book made me panicky, what had I done, my life was never going to be the same again, it seemed to focus on everything bad that could happen when you had a second child. I stopped reading the book about three quarters of the way through and calmed down and so far having DS2 has not been as bad as the book made out.

hello again scummy! thanks for your note. think i must either develop the hide of an elephant or stop getting involved in these discussions! my sense of humour has returned this morning thankfully, and i'm honoured by your no caps message!

we have just been on holiday with another couple and their two kids (4 & 2). their mother is an old friend of mine from university. she shudders at the mention of routine, but likes the children's day to have some structure. i love the stability of routines, but try to apply some common sense to the process. we were both happy to just let the other family get on with it as normal. the upshot of it all was - if you were a fly on the wall during our holiday looking at the kids' days and how they were handled by the parents, i think it would have been almost impossible to say which "camp" (dreadful term!) either set of parents fell into!

anyway, everyone must be totally bored with me and my opinions on this thread by now, so will see you elsewhere on the site no doubt.

thanks again

Ghosty - re the breastfeeding thing - this is from the Katharine Whitehorn book I mentioned:

"As with cows, some are good milkers and some aren't. In primitive life, poor milkers probably don't succeed in rearing daughters at all, so the strain dies out; here, it doesn't. What those whose cup runneth not over ought to be doing is giving thanks they live in a developed country with plenty of good substitutes where it doesn't matter one way or another." (And those who criticise them for giving up should shut up.) "Mavis Gunther, whose 'Infant Feeding' is the best book going on this, says it isn't just psychology, it's shape - and you can't buy falsies for this one."

Well, hooray for Mavis Gunther!

Another bit from KW, which sums up the my-childcare-guru-is-better-than-yours argument perfectly:

"In the last 50 years we've been told to do everything with regularity (Truby King), not to bother with timetables (Ruth Millom); to put them in splints if they masturbate (Lydiard), never to check genital play (Spock); that dummies deformed the face, didn't deform the face but but were dirty; that dummies satisfied the sucking instinct. We've been told to be natural but never to smack them, to give them a Balanced Diet but never to care if they leave it; small wonder that even when we've decided what to do, we've scarcely any confidence in doing it. I reckon the only two things I've ever got across with any certainty to my own children are the rules about road safety and chewing gum (one entirely for their benefit, one for mine); all the rest is doubt."

EXACTLY!!!!! And look at the regularity bit - Truby King - I'm not sure but I think his era was the 30s - maybe that's where Gin aFord got it from?

janh, Hear hear! I agree totally! Thanks for that - you are my new best friend!!!

Every week there is a new theory and new research about what to do and what not to do.

Here in NZ they have different views from the UK even though they have the same books. Eg, they say it is OK to sleep a baby on its side (Horror of horrors you all cry - it stops babies getting flat heads at the back apparently! However, they do ADVISE that you put them on their back to avoid SIDS)!

What I have tried to do with both dd's is to have what I call a "flexible routine". This means that usually things like bedtimes are the same every day, UNLESS something more exciting is on offer, eg. a family party, on holiday, going to an event, or whatever. I remember when I was at the stage of going to mother and playgroups, etc, some mothers "couldn't" come because they were when their child usually slept. I always felt that the child (and myself) got far more benefit from going out and could sleep later (or not at all)for that day. This is probably what most of you do isn't it and I'm just going to sound like a patronising old bag.

Ghosty, you are very welcome - I was just the same as you, felt devastated when I had to give up and very inadequate in the face of La Leche League etc who insisted anybody could do it if they just tried harder. WRONG! Nyaah nyaah!

Truby King - there was a man! He learnt his craft of advising mothers after studying th rearing of plants and animals after being in charge of a mental hospital in New Zealand.
He prbably singlehandedly bu**ered up breastfeeding for THE many women who had been managing perfectly well till he introduced routines.
After the age of 36 hours babies should be fed 4 hourly.If under 6lbs should be fed 3 hourly.
No baby should be fed after 10pm or before 6am.
If the baby wakes during the night women were advised to change the sleeping position, nappy, give water. If windy give sodium bicarbonate and water or put a hot cloth on the abdomen taking care not to burn the baby.
This is the best bit. If the baby's abdomen is distended "give him an enema at 105 degrees Fahr".

Routine local treatments for the breast were advised "bathe the breats quickly, first with hot and then the cold water. Repeat the process frequently for four or five minutes, always ending with cold water. Dry briskly with a roughish towel, stroking from the base of the breast towards the nipple. Follow by five to ten minutes of massage, using powdered hands".

Is it any wonder women found themselves unable to feed their babies. Good job he had a recipe for making fresh humanised milk involving fresh milk, Karilac, Kariol and a double scalded butter-muslin.

scummymummy, I love Libby Purves - someone sensible! Athough having said about dd's routines she has decided that she doesn't fancy her nap today unless it can be on mummy's shoulder.

As for the La Leche league and the NCT on breastfeeding...by their standards I couldn't go into labour naturally, couldn't deliver naturally and then couldn't even feed dd naturally! They do make you feel such a failure. I also had the book 'Breast is Best' and it made me feel so inadequate, it was totally unrealistic as to how problematical b/f can be and also took the line that there's no such thing as a woman who can't breastfeed. And then there's other mums who say things like, 'I went through the pain to breastfeed' i.e. I didn't.

KS, I'm sure Gina Ford thinks she is being parental. After all, there are basic things even non-parents understand.

Isn't it amazing how one person's cure is another one's poison? Breast is Best was my bible.
Ulimately it is back to whatever works for you is your bible. It is a good job there is such a diversity out here of gurus to meet our needs.
Where it goes horribly wrong is when you do not recognise that guru is not for you and you torment yourself trying to reach the unreachable. Now I am back to slagging GF. Sorry

I keep laughing at all this "routine" stuff. What routine?!

)

mears, I think that Breast is Best would have been great if things hadn't been so bad.

That's exactly what I meant Ionesmum. The gurus we read are only great when are able to get something positive from them. If no-one had success with GF then she would be slated. As it is, people do have success therefore love her. Because I have no need for her I am then able to contradict her teachings. As scummymummy commented, I am a very untidy chaotic person so couldn't be bothered with a rigid routine.
I think that women who have tidy houses and ordered lives find motherhood a bit harder to get used to. Anyone else think that?

My poor mother got me one of the Ezzos books for a present, not having read it but on a friend's recommendation. She gave it to me while my sister was around and we both told her just why it was so awful (if you haven't heard of it, it's nothing like anything you have in the UK, it's seriously insane, basically keeping kids like pets in a pseudo-religious way). We decided it shouldn't be donated away and was buried in the trash.

My ob for my first son endeared herself forever to my husband with the answer to my question of "What books should I get for pregnancy and having a baby?". She said, "NONE! Don't get any. None of them will apply to you."

And then my pet hates are (since, of course, I refused her advice): Dr Sears (he who had a huge formula maker advertising on his website-- but that's not why I hate him, it's mainly for his advice), Penelope Leach (although she had lovely pictures) and the What to Expect (ie Why You're Doing It Wrong) series.

Husband input: I hated the Penelope Leach book even more than the Sears book. I actually thought the Sears book, unlike the Leach tome, had some useful info. Once you get past the Sears outlook that you and all 300 of your children should sleep in bed together until they go off to uni you can pretty much recognize the bits where he just flakes out and ignore those. Leach just seemed batty and useless. Favorite example is her suggestion that, for a fussy or cholicky baby you simply put them in a buggy in your kitchen while you're running the household and talk cheerfully to them. Yes, brilliant. Thanks, Penelope.
(and that was my husband, folks)

The one I found helpful was the American Academy of Pediatrics book (not great parenting advice but ideal for when you should ring the doctor type advice). That book is still in heavy use.

With son number two I didn't buy any new books and disregarded every piece of advice from the previous go around. Whoever said that breastfeeding prevents allergies should be shot. That's just me, though. The best advice ever was my next door neighbour telling me how ridiculous books were.. "You wouldn't say that all people do this or all people do that, would you? You'll figure it out." She had two small kids, so I was happy to hear that.