Slagging Off The Childcare Gurus

[susanmt]

I'll not start it, I just created the thread!!

Sorry me again. I disagree with you Bossykate (but then I would say that). There are large numbers of threads on Mumsnet where GF mums ask questions along the lines of "my 5 month old baby follows the routines perfectly but wakes up at 4am and although she settles herself relatively quickly, I want to know what I am doing wrong?. Should I shorten her lunchtime nap, should I increase the last feed? blah blah blah. To a large numebr of mothers, that question is utterly baffling. Everyone is an individual and at 34 I never sleep through the night!. But in the vast majority of cases, fellow Fordies answer and offer advice and nobody interferes. Given the title of this thread, can I humbly suggest that if you don't like seeing people you admire slagged off, you don't read it!!

croppy - you may be right in that someone lacking in self confidence may be overly affected by GF. But - they may also take too much to heart other sources of advice such as comments from HVs, other books, friends' well meant opinions.....

croppy - i don't ask such questions, nor normally do i answer them, depends on the situation.

don't think it is appropriate for you to tell me not to read this thread.

ellaroo, ouch! i have (virtually speaking) bent over backwards on this site and in life not to push my way of doing things on anyone - gf or other parenting stuff. i take exception to your comments. ime it is many of the antis who are over zealous in criticising - it works both ways you know!

blimey Croppy, steady on. There are lots of mums that are really working hard at parenting, and if following GF works for them, then fine. Mumsnet is a good place to ask for advice with the GF routines and I don't think its your place to belittle people that do so. I did follow GF with dd, and it was great, but I have always said that it won't work for everyone and that I find the routines over-restrictive (you don't get a much-needed chance to get out of the house).

Good for you if you found your own routines with your babies, but do bear in mind that not everyone has that luxury and what is 'baffling' to you may be a real problem for someone else.

Bossykate, I didn't mean to offend you - as you had said at the end of your last post 'each to their own'. As an 'anti', as you call me, I have never before even mentioned my aversion to Gina, I did so only because I resented anyone being told that if it didn't work for them that they needed to re-read it. My best friend follows Gina to the letter and it has worked brilliantly for her (I think she is a fantastic mum and that her baby seems wonderfully happy on the routines and have no critism of it whatsoever, but it is not for me) so I would never choose to tell her that if attachment parenting, for example, hadn't worked for her she just needed to re-read a bit more of a book, as it would be patronising and completely pointless. I think the reason that 'anti's may get defensive is that sometimes the implication is that if GF hasn't worked for you or is not something that appeals to you, you just need to try a bit harder with it - it is the failure to comprehend that it will not suit everyone that irritates me. Rant over!

Oh dear! A bit heated...

Anyway, I was looking around for some cocktail recipes (don't ask!) and instead the search engine came up with "resources for working mothers". The experts didn't have any advice for working dads.

That's because 'resources for working dads' comes in a bottle with 'Vodka' written on the front

Apologies Enid, I really didn't mean to belittle mothers who follow GF. That is just my view of her book. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, what I meant was that although a question which suggests that a 5 month old baby waking briefly once or twice in the night is a "problem" to a GF fan, to many of us out there, it is completely normal and part of the gradual transition to sleeping through the night. My point was, although it is indeed baffling to many anti-GF'ers to suggest that if a very young baby is waking the mother must be doing wrong, as a rule we don't wade in but let the fellow fordies answer. Maybe I've got it wrong and that most Mumsnetters do expect their babies to sleep though the night at a very young age.

I really hate the books that say 'If your child is not doing this by this stage, consult your doctor'. The 'What to Expect' books are particularly bad at this - I remember reading that if your child doesn't proffer a foot by a certain age, then you may wish to consult a doctor...I would love to see my GP's face as I walked in and said 'I'm a bit concerned, my child does not proffer a foot!'. Almost worth it to see the reaction though!

I was making a suggestion not telling you Bossykate. This thread is for slagging off guru's not defending them. Why do GF'ers get so upset? Don't see any Penelope Leach, Sheila Kitzinger or Christopher Green followers wading in to defend their heroes. Perhaps GF fans share similar personalities!!!

enid, i agree with you and am therefore wondering where my apology from croppy is.

err ok then sorry Bossykate. Still slightly puzzled, if I was going to get upset at seeing my fave guru criticised, I wouldn't read a thread entiled "slagging off the childcare gurus!!!

Croppy, I agree that its fine to slag off GF on this thread, but not the people that use the books and use mumsnet to ask questions about the books.

I see you admire Christopher Green - well I think he's an a**e, but I'm not so daft to think that everyone thinks that and I know a lot of people think he's brilliant. So hey, live and let live!

Oh dear I really didn't mean to belittle GF followers as such. I was firstly just setting out why I personally disliked her books and then clumsily tried to highlight how diametrically opposed GF followers views can be from other mothers. I was just trying to make the point that for GF followers a baby waking in the night is sometimes seen as a "problem" that needs to be rectified while for others (well me anyway) it is just completely normal for a small baby to wake in the night. That's why you sleep with them while they are young so your nights aren't too disturbed. Sorry for any offence caused by the remark but it wasn't supposed to be insulting, I just truly am baffled by such messages!.

Enid I think you have me confused with somebody else as I am not a C Green fan. I expect GF followers would characterise me as "knit your own baby sling out of your own pubic hair and carry your child in it all times till the age of 6, bf till 12 and co sleep till 18" or would that perhaps be belittling???? (joke). Also I like some of Penelope Leach, something which some GF followers view as a "waste of paper" I believe.

I've just started using a GF-type routine based on her book but with everything shoved back a couple of hours, but I also use the methods described by Elizabeth Pantley (who is of the attatchment parenting school) to get dd to sleep instead of letting her cry it out. I think it's possible to get something from both ways of doing things.

Still don't get on with M. Stoppard though.

In an attempt to bring about world peace.... thought I should share the fact that my friends and I call NCT meet ups KYOV for short. (Eg: Where's Sue? She's at KYOV) That's knit your own vagina for anyone who's wondering. No offence meant to any NCT fans - just thought I'd try to get the thread giggling again.

croppy - tbh i'm really surprised at the vehemence of your response to my remarks, many of which were tongue in cheek and signalled as such by means of emoticons. in the grand scheme of things this is trivia, and i don't like to see mums slugging it out on mumsnet over things like this (not just gf other relatively minor things also) when there are so many more serious issues affecting us. i think it is a case of agreeing to differ on this. i look forward to corresponding with you more amicably on different subjects.

ellaroo, sorry you think you have had pro gf views imposed on you. that is not my style, and i wonder (as i have said on mumnset before) how anyone has the time and energy to be trying to mind other people's business in the childrearing arena - it is difficult enough for me to manage my own affairs. i agree with you, as i said, there are approaches i personally don't feel comfortable with - so i don't use them, but don't feel the need to tell others how to go about it. i suppose we are all rather sensitive on these subjects. i really object to the term fascist (or nazi which i have also heard) being used in relation to subjects like this. my dh is currently writing a book on the holocaust and those terms are just not bandied about lightly in our household. oh well, as i said before each to their own.

hi scummy, thanks for your note. don't feel too bad - your remarks have certainly got things going in the past! and we forgive you for your poetry!

Streuth - it's only bloody Gina Ford and her rather fierce way with babies. I must admit I nearly choked when I read the bit about toast, cereal and a drink NO LATER than 8am. What is that all about??? And I have to say, it IS a slagging off thread and I was thoroughly enjoying it until world war III broke out. Anyway, back to poor old Penelope Leach who has hardly a disciple in the world. I have never felt so inadequate as when being told how much I should enjoy being woken up in the night. I thought, 'I wonder how long it is since you were woken up in the night, you old bat.' A friend recently described the experience of constant night waking as like being woken up by someone banging hard and repeatedly on your head with a tin tray, which I though was extremely accurate. Not a bit orgasmic, I have to say.

Without wanting to take sides can I just stand up for Croppy (ok, well I guess that is taking sides, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion, right?)

I aspire to a very child-centred approach to parenting. As such I find it very hard to come to terms with people who expect and even want their child to fit in with such strict routines.

Ok, hands up, I have never read GF, but I've heard enough to not want to. And tbh, while I love parenting books (and take from each of them as much or as little as is appropriate) I have never heard of many of theose mentioned here.

Willow2 -

I aspire to a child-centred approach to raising my baby too. This for me meant not co-sleeping as dh and I were so tired it would have been dangerous for dd. I also desperately wanted to breastfeed and am gutted that I couldn't, but apparently this makes me a failure, too. And bonding is supposed to happen within the first few hours' after birth, but I had a g/a and the first time that I saw dd was seven hours' after her birth and I was off my head on morphine - I didn't hold her at all until the next day. Fortunately dd and I bonded straight away but if we hadn't I would have been devastated by that attitude.

As for the GF way not being nurturing, well, Pupuce is one of the most nurturing people that I've come across. At the end of the day all Mumsnet mums are trying to do the best for their babies, whatever camp they fall into.