Anyone want to discuss whether there is any justification to viewing a scene of graphic violence

[Twiglett]

I was just responding to Leati regarding the viewing of the prisoner beating video when the thread was pulled.

I do think that the discussion was probably worthwhile .. and I heartily applaud the thread being pulled.

My question is this

What is the moral justification for clicking on a link you have been pre-warned is a realtime video of graphic violence against a prisoner convicted of viewing paedophiliac images

How is it any different from clicking on a link that is real video of graphic violence against anyone else?

I believe young children should be taught and guided by giving them lots of positive role models and love and kindness. I subscribe to the non-smacking brigade.

My heart weeps for those children who don't grow up in this environment. For those children, some grow up troubled, others are able to overcome their poor start - these are the success stories.

But at some point, when these children approach the age of criminal responsibility and, if they have a propensity to violence, are able to inflict serious injury on another human being, the criminal justice system takes over from their parents. And at this point, society needs to be protected from these young adults. Hence, the need to intervene whilst these children are still young.

I don't necessarily mean judicial corporal punishment as per Malaysia and Singapore - caning always makes me seriously queasy. But I can say with certainty that the incidence of drug trafficking is very low in Singapore. Traffickers definitely avoid transitting in Singapore. Barbaric as it is, caning (and the almost summary death penalty) works as a deterrent against a certain ilk of criminal.

pan

UCm is it not better that your child respects you than fears you?

i agree that discipline is hugely lacking inmuch of society and this is in part, a contributing factor to the apparant rise in anti social behaviour.

but discipline does not need to equal physical punishments.
your child misbehaves - so you hit him... he grows up of the opinion that if someone does something you dont like you hit them.

i think that has more to do with the (apparant) rise in youth violance than the children that are loved and nurtured and taught a mutual respect

Hitting (or smacking, if you prefer) a child is so misguided. You cannot use physical punishment without making a child feel humiliated and worthless. Some inevitably become violent themselves, but for most it just means misery and the sense that you are not really loved as you should be. There is no such thing as a loving smack.

UCM, huge numbers in the Western world (most civilised people) know that doing exactly that - taking your belt to him for violence etc is what breeds criminals. So yes I'll watch my back but if you are committing criminal offences against him then it's you who need to be careful if you're in the UK. Of course if you don't hit him enough that it hurts you're fine but then there's no point in it.

Children get childline phone numbers at school and properly so. Let's make today the day mumsnetters stop breaking laws and stop smacking children illegally.

I once saw a woman who had been pro-smacking say she'd stopped when she went to hit the child that she loved and saw fear in their eyes.

I don't need the law to tell me smacking is wrong. The day my children are frightened of what I will do to them is the day I have failed as a mother.

It is to our shame as a country that we need laws to stop parents hurting their own children. It is solely because we accept violence as a part of life. If a society is serious about eradicating violence then it has to ban violence - in films, television, computer games, music - anything that shows violence as acceptable.

The classic time in the bad old days was when the child was big enough to thump you back hard and was taller than you.

Well I hope that my DS doesn't end up like a thug then Xenia. Because I don't have the money to send him to the schools etc that you have sent your boys to.

He will have to make do with the local comprehensive.

You hope, UCM? I don't even entertain the thought that my ds will be a thug. No possibility of it.

If you think it, it makes it far more likely to happen. I know my ds will turn out just fine.

And he's making do with the local comp too.

UCM, the reason why I sympathise with you is because I sense your
motive for starting this debate - 'caning for paedophiles' -
is a desire for revenge.
Your posts on the other thread led me to this conclusion,
please correct me if I am wrong.

And the thing is: I am with you. All the way.

If someone did anything to my dd I would take a sabbatical from life
until I had exacted the precise level and type of revenge on the culprit
or his family () that I saw fit. And then I would turn myself in and do my time.

But you know what I am thinking?
I think it is you and me that have a problem. Our attitude is not right.

It has to be about justice not about revenge.
Eye for an eye, tit-for-tat - it's barbaric, UCM. It's not the way forward.

I share your impatience, though.
Browsing the other thread (inspired by your original)
I can't help but feel that the focus is on how to help the paedophile criminal
as opposed to how to protect his (or her) potential victims.

DaddyJ, check out the Kidscape website which has loads of info on keeping dcs safe. Michelle Eliot has written a great book for dcs too but it is out of print - I got a second-hand copy via Amazon. kidscape.org.uk

Thanks very much

I agree with sophable

DaddyJ, I hope you didn't find that suggestion patronising, I have three dcs and thought I'd know how to deal with teaching my dcs about being safe but the Kidscape downloads have made things so much easier for me.

In terms of wider society's duty to keep children safe, I think we need to acknowledge that paedophilia cannot be cured and there are some offenders who cannot be allowed back into society - ever.

stt, not patronising at all, very interesting website!

DaddyJ :"I can't help but feel that the focus is on how to help the paedophile criminal
as opposed to how to protect his (or her) potential victims."

I disagree, I think the emphasis on helping the criminal is precisely in the hope that treatment and rehabilitation (in conjunction with imprisonment, tagging, surveillance etc) it will prevent some criminals and POTENTIAL criminals doing it again, instead of just letting them out of prison and feeling pretty sure that they WILL do it again.
And also recognising that a large proportion of criminals are ALSO victims themselves. It doesn't mean what they do is OK or acceptable or anything but terrible and awful, but trying to understand what got them to this place can inform public policy re the way the health and social services intervene in dysfunctional families, for example. Children brought up in violent families, who are hit and hurt and scared, are MUCH more likely to become criminals.
One of the boys who killed James Bulger was 'disciplined' with an iron bar . It didn't exactly turn him into a model citizen.

I do agree that all the tagging, surveillance of released paedophiles is designed to protect children, but I am not sure that it is particularly effective. In our village we have a man who has served time for a violent offense and yet who passed the CRB enhanced check to serve on the school committee. A police officer we know checked him out on the police computer and he isn't there. So he's managed to buck the system (And believe me, I am deeply uncomfortable about the ethics of this and wish I didn't know, but I do.) I don't think for a second that this man is going to commit a crime against children but it shows that the system can be broken. The CRB check system only applies to people in positions of trust anyway; what about your dcs' best mates' dad or uncle, or the bloke you play golf with? There are already demands for women to be able to CRB check potential stepdads (and the other way around of course) - eventually the demand will be for anyone to be able to CRB check anyone they want to.

I once saw a professor on television who had worked all her life with paedophiles and she said that there is no cure, and that you could never be sure that they wouldn't offend again. I don't think it does the offenders any favours to tag and them and watch their every moves, that seems dehumanising in itself, quite apart from the fact no civiilised society should knowingly (or naively) put its most vulnerable people at risk from harm. I favour allowing paedophiles to lead as normal lives as possible (studying, even working) but within prison for life.

It is interesting you mentioning the boys who killed James Bulger . I can remember the calls to bring back hanging for them. They were children, and here were elements of our press and sections of our society calling for the state killing of children.

UCM, I have been thinking about your posts. I agree with Sophable, the Daily Mail is like a disease in our society that spreads fear and feeds off it. Horrible. You feel the way you do because you have allowed violence and fear into your life. So you view more violence, read about more, get more frightened - so it goes.

Fear is what is driving you, not hate, or even revenge. Think about how your body reacts when you read or see something that angers you. Maybe you feel sick, cry, get a headache...your body is reacting in a violent way to the violence you are thinking about. The fear has got so bad you can even conceieve of you ds becoming a 'thug', andyou have decided upon making yourself a criminal and being violent towards him in order to stop him (unless you just said tat for effect, of course). If you truly fear you ds could get so out of control then he will know it and his self esteem will plummet. You may even end up creating what you dread the most.

Do yourself a favour. Ditch the newspapers. Stop looking at internet sites. Enjoy your ds for what he is, not fear what he almost certainly doesn't have it in him to become. Lead a peaceful life. It doesn't change the harsh reality of what's going on out there - which you can do nothing about -, but you will be a lot happier.

Very true. Trinity, I probably should. I will say one thing in my defence on this. I have experienced many things in my life, as have family & extended family and sadly there hasn't been a lot of justice.

It isn't always what I pick up from the Daily Mail, which I genuinely have stopped reading because it's so depressing.

I'm sorry that you have had those experiences. Life can be tough, I'm not saying otherwise.

Glad you've ditched the DM though - wish my lovely dad would!

(Btw when you've finished the yoga go and read the Tao Te Ching! )