Why aren't women feminists? Surely no-one thinks all the battles have been won?

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OK, so I don't have any proper evidence to back this up (so don't post I hear you say, oh well, I bet there is some, so I will!) but I gather that increasingly young women aren't feminists and don't believe there's any need for a feminist movement of any kind. They think all the battles have been won. I know for sure they haven't but WHY do they think this? And why would anyone NOT be a feminist? If you're not, why not? I know this conversation has been had before on mn but I'm still interested.

I agree with Janice Turner about New Woman mag rebranding itself because young women don't like the word 'woman' fgs, this is an example of the sort of thing I mean.

that suggests that feminism is in essence socialism with nicer shoes?

are we therefore saying that men are crap so as women we will look after societies welfare and social justice.

of course if men can be feminists - and feminists look out for everyones interests

isn't everyone a socialist?

therefore, if we are fighting social injustice under the banner of feminism and not socialism

is that becuase feminism (like the sHoes) looks nicer in an MC way.

certainly i could understand the Middle classes feeling slightly out of place in a power for the proletariat movement.

is it thereofre not more suiting to the middle classes to be feminists. therefore silently allowing the perpetuation of a capitalist system which subjugates so many and ignores many more - whilst shouting " but the tories will say that mothers wont be entitled to maternity pay, this would seriously affect our income and lifestyle choices" - on a personal level. rather than a social level.

therefore, if feminism is fighting for all why isn't it socialism? is it becuase the socialist shoe, doesnt look as pretty on a Middle class foot?

Because it's equality of the sexes that it is fighting for primarily. Which is why the old labour movement wasn't that hot on feminism and why black women in the US in the 70s tended to see themselves as black women before they saw themselves as women.

We all choose our battlegrounds. But post-feminism is an insidious evil - pretending that everything in the garden is rosy when so much really hasn't changed.

so if equality of the sexes is the primar fight i stand with my previous 'splinter' comment. i think feminism is unhelpful becuae it is one of many splinters fighting for their corner. everyone fighting for their own cause their own battle ground. which is why we have the injustice we do. if together we stood and faught for equality ...thats it...just equality for all then we would make a change in society.

TBH I would rather be classed as a socialist than a feminist. It happens that more part-time workers are women and that women get the maternity benefits and if getting these hidden agendas out on the table for discussion and debate is by highlighting it to a bunch of mums then so be it. But I'm appalled not just because I happen to fall into both categories in the DC paper but because it affects vulnerable PEOPLE. I'm not particularly attracted to the feminist movement per se, perhaps because it's pereceived as an exclusive group whereas rights of suffrage or equal pay should be across the board regardless of anything (including sex, but not exclusively).

I thought we had made progress in moving on from battling for maternity rights to it being parental rights so that dads can have leave too. Really hope we're not going to take a step backwards in a new conservative era and start from square one again.

Gloria Steinem is a bloody GODDESS. An absolute hero. She is EXACTLY the sort of strong, brave, intelligent, principled woman I want my daughter to know about and admire, not some sodding soft-porn model.

I agree with you Custardo. I am all for equality but could never put myself under a Feminist banner because of all that conjurs up. The majority of feminist and I feel very diffrent about some women's issues that don't have anything to do with equality. If it was just equality we were speaking of it might be diffrent.

I'm not pro-abortion for instance.

hannahsaunt - but that is precisely the point. Paternity rights affect women as much as men. I work - if my DH could have had a few months off after I'd gone back to work my life would have been easier and my return to work eased. If paternity rights were as strong as maternity and as well taken up there wouldn't be the tacit discrimination against women of fertile age in the jobs market. Feminisn isn't about pitting women against men, it's about making the lives of both better by equalising the sexes - making life better and oppurtunites more accessible for women also benefits men. The model that says men go out to win bread and women stay at home to look after children is not only unfeasible for lots of us, it's also pretty restrictive for men.

It's about equality between the sexes. You can make povery history as much as you like, butif the women in a certain culture are always treated as second best you won't really be making povery history for the society as a whole.

How many feminist have you known who would actually agree with that?

Agree with MP and MT on the lecturer issue.

The part time thing is because the vast majority of part time workers ARE women and many of those are part time because they are looking after children.

That's yet another bloody good reason not to vote Tory, however charming and NotTony Cameron may be.

This issue makes my blood boil too much

I just agree with everything www says

Maybe the Feminist in the Uk are diffrent. Mostly my experiance comes from the States.

Yes MP,they are in a position of power.
Does this by extension mean that you have to shag them?
Here's a thought...how about shouldering a little responsibility for the whole sordid episode yourself???

I think that feminism was/is important along side socilaism because there is/was a substantial section of socilaist males who were all in favour of eqality etc as long as it didn't intefere with their dinner still being on the table when they came in from work. I remember a stuprisingly stong streak of small c conservatism in loy=ts of socialist males.

Granted it isn't as bad now as it was then, but men often simply don't 'see' the issues that affect women mosr, because they simply have never had to deal with those issues.

In the 1980s when the miners strike was running the strenth of the women was amazing and held many a family together, But even at this time women were still being called to on the marches to 'Get your tits out for the boys' It too Feminism to change this. On their own many of these men would simply never have changes their entrenched attitues that this was 'Just how men behvae'

You could argue that under real socialim we shouldn't need feminism. But the reallty is that we still do. And at a time when 'Getting your tits out for the boys' is seen as 'A bit of a larf' we need it just as much now as we did in the 80s and 60s

dh was brought up in the ex-GDR (although he would argue that it wasn't, in practice, socialist at all). Most women were in the workplace, the childcare system was amazing, there were a lot of women in traditionally 'male' jobs, International Women's Day was celebrated much as Valentine's Day is here. In practice (as far as I can tell from talking to and observing dh and his family and friends, and from my reading on the period) women tended to have the triple burden of working, housework and childcare; many felt pressured to put their children into (very institutionalised) daycare earlier than they would have liked; society was still intrinsically sexist. The distribution of roles between my MIL and FIL is absolutely 'small c conservative', as MB puts it. In other words, I definitely agree with MB about feminism and socialism (as it has been practised) being essentially separate.

On that subject I can recall a right-on newly-working class hero helping to organise a rally in support of the ANC, in our flat when I was at uni in the early 80s. He actually dared to utter the immortal phrase "put the kettle on love" to one of my flat-mates. And it wasn't ironic. Did we have irony then?

Well no, the alliance with socialism was never going to end well was it ?
In my view that is a big reason feminism as a specific force has almost died. The loud end of feminists invariably latched on to the most left wing idea they could find, and louldy promoted quite independant of whether it made any sense, let alone was it good for women.

You get what you want from politicians by being a floating group. If they think they've got you in their pocket, you will get what you're given, or they think there's no chance of getting your vote will ignore you.

The slavish obediance of the loud feminists to increasingly discredited policies (unions, anti-nuclear, etc) coincided in the 1980s with the point where all the obvious clear battles had been won. Since it was tricky, the Labour party gave up trying because it wasn't fun, and the Tories were too old and stupid to care.

Saying socialism means there is no room for feminism is saying the civil rights movement was pointless, or that black people should never work against racism, just for socialism. There are plenty of very sexist socialists around!

FIT my greatest shock when living in Russia was to discover that post communism there is nothing these women love more than slipping into a pair of high heels,slapping on the lippy and simpering when someone opens a door for then.International Women's day is more about giving flowers and bad poetry than feminism.

My dh came home from work one day in utter shock having had a long discussion with one of the interpreters (brilliant) who assured hom that women were not as intelligent as men.

Ormwould it have been ok if he'd said 'Put the kettle on mate' to a bloke?
Why is such a simple request so loaded??