Is marriage good for women?

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In the last few months I have read articles with this theme that married women don't live as long (although they have more sex) and the growing number of single women in the UK who choose not to be married. I even read recently that women with large families live at least 5 years less than those with small ones. Men who are married live longer than single men but the studies appear to suggest the same is not true for women. Now, I am always skeptical of the latest study but wonder what is driving these. Is there truth in them. I have been married almost 15 years myself and been a normal average marriage, no crisis stuff or trauma. Wouldn't trade the kids for the world but sometimes wonder where the old me went? Why all the strategies to cope with a spouse, will they wear me down in the end or is it just normal part of marriage on both sides? Just some new year midlife musings? What do you think? I don't know the answer myself. I think yes because it is good for the kids but......

ch, I agree. I know loads of 20 somethings as my 3 children are about that age. They don't make the assumptions some older people made. It was only in the 1970s when I was at school that we even had laws entitling women to the same pay for the same work. It's all happened really fast. My daughter commented on her then boyfriend's mother running round after the father (and the 3 grown up sons) as a strange unfair thing and I'm sure she wouldn't put up with that.

I suppose one thing is to try to find a way to commuincate with the other half which is not nasty or confrontational or nagging but simply gets the information over nicely that you need help with X. Men can't hear women's voices as well as other men's studies have shown, it's a question of pitch so even getting them to take in the words said can be hard.

When my ex went part time and was also working for me some jobs I'd always done he then did. When he left it was hard to remember to do them. I think all relationships you agree some division of roles - I would always do the tax return and he'd wash the nappies or whatever .... or he'd do the cars if you want a more typical example and I bought the Christmas presents.

(We only used cloth nappies in 1984 onwards because disposables seems really hopeless in those days and I think we thought it was cheaper too)

this sounds encouraging about age groups gender roles stuff...
i just wasnt prepared for life w/ bloke like my dad bless him, no siree..

Interesting. Although working full time my father did all the babies' night feeds (after my monther breastfeeding me stopped early) which actually I think might be unreasonable as he was at work all day but I did have that 1960s example of involved father, home at lnch time, hoovering at weekends, even though he was a consultant psychiatrist. So I obviously excepted similar fairness in my own marriage and got it and I hope if I find someone else it would be the same... reason to pick men in their 30s may be....

wow..
quite a different story here: mum does the lot and father sits on fat behind, if not down pub or working or wherever..
my sister and i have to help all round the house, my brother not at all.
It used to kill me with frustration and i always used to say to them: if i ever have children I'd never do this them ITS NOT FAIR..

suzy, only homes I know like that these days around here are Indian/Pakistani ones, where sisters sometimes (not always and I hate generalisations) wait on brothers and some boys grow up thinking they are little male Gods.

So I wonder what made my parents like that? My mother supported my father through medical school - he was still doing exams until he was 30 and worked full time as a teacher for 13 years before they had children. She was the first woman in her area to claim the "married man's" tax allowance. I suppose her child psychology studies and his psychiatry probably gave them some more insight into relationships and fairness than may be others.

Is it money and power? Successful clver women who earn more than their men are hardly likely to bow and scrape at home.

I am nodding ans agreeing with Xenia (although in fairness I quite often do)

I honestly believe that we are the first generation of women to really enforce the equality thing. Looking at my parents it was a trad marriage with mum as a sahm, and looking at my brothers it is the same. Both their wives are sahm's and in my eldest bros case I think the divison of labour is pretty traditional too - he does teh 'boys' stuff while my sil does the 'girls' stuff.

In my house it used to be I did everything It was entirly my fault, I believed I had to be supermum and a ful time working mum, DH didn't do much. However I realised that was because I had belittled his attempts when trying. It all came out over a supermarket trip hhe had made. I did a detailed list (inc brands of stuff I wanted) he came back with the WRONG YOGHURT and we had a HUGE row. I said things like 'have you ever seen that yoghurt in the house' and he said that I put him down at every opportunity and didn't trust him to do anything properly hence the reason he did nothing IYKWIM

Things changed hugely when we decided he was to be a SAHD for a while (he's an actor) and instead of seeing himself as out of work, he realsied his JOB was to run the house. All I did was the washing, we all mucked in with cleaning - although he did most of it. He did the childcare (albeit only afterschool) learnt what sandwiches they liked - after binning tonnes and tonnes of them, finally clicked they didn't like stuff! AND I DIDN'T INTERFERE

It took 10 years of marriage for me to trust him to feed the kids - OK less veg than I would like but you can't have everything. Do the housework, even organise and run playdates ect etc. and do you know we both agree it is better now as
a) He feels he is capable more than in fact
b) his self esteem is higher as he is no longer unemployed between jobs
c) I like him more as I don't feel the weight of our combined lives on my shoulders
d) we have more sex

xenia, it served as the perfect role model for me on HOW NOT TO do it really!
it was 70's scotland, women walk ten paces behind men and very much second class citizens and i could not bear it..

strangely enough my father always insisted my sister and i should concentrate on school and be eductated, for once we more important than my brother as he didnt want us tied to some loser who had financial control over us!

Yes, it feels like another planet. I think my mother for those 13 years teaching before they had a family but after they married kind of established the equality in their relationship and her financially supporting him a bit too set up that power thing that works okay for them so that was then what I suppose I sought. I also think I was just more conscious of this than most girls. I wanted children early on and I remember when we really hadn't been out together very often sitting in the Berni Inn with him talking about childcare issues. I remember him saying if we can't find a nanny etc then he would give up teaching (as he would earn less) and bring the babies to me and he was also kind of proud to show me his house and washing systems there. I suppose if you're a fairly clever man and trying to sell yourself to a woman you want you think of what things might match what she's after but I think I wouold have guessed if he were lying about his views on equality etc in the home. Also me taking 2 weeks off when the babies were born was we never had one of us much better and experienced with children - we both learnt on the job so he never felt inadequate.

crunchie's post is interesting too. Trusting men, letting them make mistakes, not criticising them for it, deciding what is important are all wise but has crunchie got that balance because she like me probably was the principal bread winner - does that power and fairness only come when the woman earns more? Is the unfairness there in many marriages of stay at home mothers or part time working mothers because they earn less and men still think - I earn the most therefore I can put my feet up and watch TV whilst you run round after me every night.

No I was the principal earner until I went part time. i think the problem is many fold. For me a big issue is never having the time/energy to discuss things properly and the fact that we have medical issues in our house.

For me it's not necessarily a man thing more a personality thing. DP will constantly say that DS must go to bed earlier and as it is his responsibility and has been for the past two years it simply doesn't happen. DS is still up as I type. Two years and it has not changed. When it dawns on him that DS has dark dark rings under his eyes he starts going on about it and I just want to scream 'well fucking do it then'. IS that a man thing or just a DP thing?

My FIL is a man who thinks like this Xenia and it really irritates me. Never lifts a finger and he thinks its ok because he is the primary breadwinner. How my husband managed to be the enlightened man he is, is beyond me.

nowt wrong with marriage - its the children that kill you in the end.

( i have three teenagers)

I haven't gotten that far yet. Is it as bad as they say?

not really but i like to milk it

really great discussion, when I look around, I do see younger women (and many my age too) insisting on a better division of labour. I don't think it's all money and power though, although that really makes a difference. I stepped away from work a few years ago to be home but when I work, I make good money and it is a good position. I am not unhappy with my choice at all. I did find the difference was, when things hit an intolerable level for lots of reasons, I knew I could leave and support my children quite well. I chose not to leave and got some changes I needed (and got myself off the mommy martyr thing). like I said, its better, but I have to ask for them nicely and other things I have thrown the towel in on. I think perhaps there is an underlying resentment that men should be wary of. THey may think they are getting away with something but there can come a time when one starts to wonder, what exactly do I need you for. I worked with a women whose husband did nothing at home, was away alot with work and when he was home, criticzed and complained but did lift a finger. she worked full-time too with 2 young children. One day the light when on through the exhaustion of her life and hse said"what exactly do I need him for" and she left. I told that story to my dh and he went pale. I decided to stay myself because I could see an honest, if imperfect, but honest attempt at change.

meant did not lift a finger ie didn't change a nappy ever.

Sounds like it changed and got better then. Some women almost wear themselves into the ground doing too much. Being selfish enough to look after yourself because ultimately that's better for your relationship (if you're lucky enough to have one) and your children is hard.

yes, there was improvement. I am probably reacting to 3 weeks of "togethernes". Happily back to my routine. We will see what this decade brings. My mom and I talked this summer and she went through a list of her women she knew or heard about who had all left their husbands in their 50's and 60's. My mom thought it was a case of knowing their kids were ok now and deciding to use the time they had left to finally to do what they wanted to do and leave confining marriages although none of htem were looking for new relationships. and it wasn't just one or two women. Makes one think.

Yes, there is one thing I would agree with you Xenia, and that is that by staying at home after children are born, women are disadvantaged by becoming the main carer.

As housework increases about tenfold once you have a child (and more for each subsequent child), the woman shields the man from much of the increase in the burden of work.

From then on, even if you go back to work, you can never really offload enough of the tasks, because your partner doesn't understand just how much there is to do. He probably thinks he is doing a lot, or half even.

THe only answer would be to somehow force him to take it all over for a few weeks......

Now how can I arrange this?

And those women who don't give up work and particularly those whose husbands do all the housework and child care for a time between jobs or because their wife is the main wage earner or even just my husband at home in school holidays whilst I worked, even though there was a nanny there, they see the jobs and understand the task. So Scandinavia is better than us at getting fatehrs involved, better at paternity leave, better at lack of assumption it will be mother at home. I think the April 2007 UK legal changes giving men paternity leave might help as well although for men and women on reasonably high incomes it is only for women for 6 weeks you get your 90% pay and afte r that it's not affordable to stay off for many of us.