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Original poster

Men's understanding of the title

82 replies

Posey · 05/10/2006 14:49

Following another thread, just interested to know what other men think the title Ms is for when used instead of Mrs or Miss.
The man in question thought it was to denote a divorced woman.

So can you ask any men around what Ms means or why it is used. Oh and how old is said man?

Dh is 39. He says its just a preference so you aren't letting people know if you're married or not when it is totally irrelevant.

OP posts:
Original poster
Posey · 05/10/2006 14:50

Sorry the word Ms is missing from the title

OP posts:
Marina · 05/10/2006 14:51

I am definitely going to grill Mr Marina about this one.
I was shocked that someone preparing jobseekers for a return to the workplace was peddling such a weird piece of information - or even possibly prejudice posey
Real Pauline of League of Gentlemen stuff IMO

Flamebat · 05/10/2006 14:52

I don't know what the other thread is, but I am 99% sure that my DH would go with the divorced woman answer.

What is it meant for? I know when my mum got divorced she said that she wasn't a "divorced" woman, she was single, so she was a "Miss"... and she ticks both boxes on forms

anniediv · 05/10/2006 14:52

I am a Ms. I am married, and was Ms before too. My view is that until men have to call themselves 'Master' until they are married, why do we have to make known our marital status? My dad is 73 and is used to calling my sister and I Ms on letters (she is also married) DH is 34 and has never heard of the divorced woman thing! BTW my sister and I both use our maiden names too.

Flamebat · 05/10/2006 14:52

(divorced & single... not Miss and Ms)

doggiesayswoof · 05/10/2006 14:53

It's a generational thing IME. At work I produce obituary lists for members. I had an older chap on the phone to me in tears once because his late wife was listed as Ms. We just gave her that title because it's standard practice if we don't know for sure. However he thought that everyone would read it and think they had been divorced and it really upset him. IIRC the original usage was for divorced women - it actually stands for Maiden Surname.

Marina · 05/10/2006 14:54

Really flamebat? Wow, you live and learn.
I remember a few snide comments in the press when Ms was first introduced but I honestly thought it was standard, unexceptionable usage now

zippitippitoes · 05/10/2006 14:54

so it could be maiden surname for never changed surname not necessarily divorce?

I use it with my divorced married surname so wrong anyway!

Original poster
Posey · 05/10/2006 14:55

Thats interesting doggiesaywoof, thanks!

OP posts:
MerlinsBeard · 05/10/2006 14:56

its for divorced women who keep their married name

my mum was MISS blah balh got married and was MRS doobydoo and now she is divorced its MS doobydoo

Original poster
Posey · 05/10/2006 14:57

Oh.
Practically all the female teachers at dd's school are referred to as Ms.

OP posts:
UnquietDad · 05/10/2006 14:58

It's perhaps not that we think it specifically denotes a divorced woman, but it is a title I've noticed being often used by the divorced who don't want to revert to Miss but don't want to keep an NLDH (No Longer Darling Husband)'s surname, or to be called Mrs any more.

I've always found Ms rather odd, and I wonder what people used to do before it was invented. I realise that probably makes me sound rather reactionary, but it is interesting that there is no equivalent in other languages that I'm familiar with.

Germans kind of get round the issue by pretty much making everyone Frau these days (I think?), but in France, you are still Mademoiselle X if you're single and Madame X if married: ditto Senorita/Senora and Signorina/Signora. I've often wondered if people who are French/Spanish/Italian and even slightly feminist ever object to this?

doggiesayswoof · 05/10/2006 14:58

I think it's one of those things where the meaning has shifted over the years. I think now it's (mostly) accepted as a form of address for women who don't feel it's relevant to advertise their marital status one way or another. But there are going to be some people who are still catching up I guess

anniediv · 05/10/2006 14:58

interesting dictionary definition...it seems I'm okay!

Marina · 05/10/2006 14:58

x-posted with doggie - I had never heard that derivation before tbh.
I never mind using or being addressed as Miss or Mrs tbh - none bothers me. But I would never pass on any such POV in a classroom setting.

doggiesayswoof · 05/10/2006 15:00

Sorry UnquietDad that looks like my post is directed at you - it's not! X-posted. I never thought of the other languages thing, it's interesting.

lemonaid · 05/10/2006 15:01

It's just a "marital status irrelevant" title. I was Ms Lemonaid before I got married, didn't change my last name so I am still Ms Lemonaid. Even if I had changed my name I'd still have chosen to be Ms Cocacola because I just don't see why my title should reflect my marital status when DH's doesn't. I do occasionally get helpful officials changing me to Mrs Lemonaid, which is particularly odd because it implies that I am definitely married, but not to DH...

I'm reasonably certain that most of the men in my vicinity have cottoned on by now...

jangly · 05/10/2006 15:03

Ms first was used at the time when the feminist movement was at its height. A lot of women thought it was nobody's business if they were Mrs or Miss, so they invented Ms.

poppynic · 05/10/2006 15:04

Grrrrrrr. I don't think I'm a particularly rabid feminist but the insistence of men to use "Miss" or "Mrs" and that "Ms" is only for rabid feminists/divorced lesbians/ etc. etc. etc. sets my teeth on edge. Never mind about other languages - how about using it as a simple equivalent to our English "Mr". (Not in anyway trying to get at UnquietDad - who I totally respect for braving MN - my dp is absolutely terrified of it!!)

doggiesayswoof · 05/10/2006 15:05

I was Ms doggiesayswoof before I got married, then carried on after my first marriage without changing my name. Then when I married dh I decided to become Mrs dh but I'm considering reverting to Ms dh. Confusing I know, but I just liked being a Ms - agree with Lemonaid about dh not advertising his marital status with his title.

zippitippitoes · 05/10/2006 15:07

it doesn't really bother me I find that most people when tsaking a name go Mrs? and i just go along with it

doggiesayswoof · 05/10/2006 15:09

I'm like you zippitippitoes - I used to get all ranty about it but I think I just find other battles more important these days. I guess that's the main reason I started calling myself Mrs - I knew most people would assume that's what I was anyway.

poppynic · 05/10/2006 15:10

Sorry, this really does get to me. At my last ante-natal check the doctor who I saw in place of the consultant (male, although I had been offered a choice of consultants and asked for a woman) could not face calling me anything but "Mrs" - even though I am not nor ever have been married. Mind you he also called the baby, "the passenger" - what's that about?

NotQuiteCockney · 05/10/2006 15:14

I don't think "Ms" means "maiden surname". It's meant to be a blend of "Miss" and "Mrs.". A quote:

USAGE NOTE Many of us think of Ms. or Ms as a fairly recent invention of the women's movement, but in fact the term was first suggested as a convenience to writers of business letters by such publications as the Bulletin of the American Business Writing Association (1951) and The Simplified Letter, issued by the National Office Management Association (1952).

So it's not feminist, and it's not that new, either.

UnquietDad · 05/10/2006 15:16

I realised, doggie - don't worry.

DW absolutely HATES being called Ms. When she started work (as a single person), the resident do-gooding thought-police member of the Management Team came round and instructed her loftily to change the sign on her classroom door from Miss X to Ms X, as it was "sending out confusing signals". WTF?? So she changed it to "Senorita."

I think Ms is imported from America, and maybe the rest of Europe is reluctant to adopt it because they're more laid-back? Or because there simply is no equivalent term they could use?

I've never been sure how to pronounce it, anyway. I've heard Mizz, Muzz and Mzzzzzz. The latter sounds like someone doing an impression of a buzzer on a daytime game-show.

What's the plural, anyway? Mss? Mses? (And the collective noun?...)

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