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Original poster

This article about sex really depressed me

143 replies

Caligula · 15/04/2006 14:43

\link{http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1753327,00.html\here}

And made me think we need a new dose of feminist conscious-raising. I'm aghast to think my DD will grow up in a world where she's expected to do this mechanical sex and wax her pubes and be treated like a whore as a normal dating experience.

Come back Mary Whitehouse, all is forgiven

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Original poster
Caligula · 15/04/2006 20:24

Good post MT

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sixtwosix · 15/04/2006 20:27

i havent managed to read the article through to the end, it is quite shocking.
but whats wrong with removing pubic hair? why does everyone on mn go up in arms when someone says it is good to wax it off?/

Original poster
Caligula · 15/04/2006 20:32

It's the fact that you've got men out there who now expect it, as they've learned from porn that that is what women should do. And that there are women out there who feel they have to do it, because they've learned from porn and general culture that they should do it.

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monkeytrousers · 15/04/2006 20:34

And now apparently \link{http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8872/pa7ex.gif\this} is the woman who is going to save feminism. From last Sundays \link{http://observer.guardian.co.uk/woman/story/0,,1747434,00.html\observer}

I'm not convinced. Some of it does sound compelling but more of it just sound like self aggrandising to me.

HelloMama · 15/04/2006 20:36

Can I ask what you are studying monkeytrousers? I am sooo interested in this subject and am really thinking about doing some more studying. You're dissertation sounds great.

sfxmum · 15/04/2006 20:37

its dangerous from the point of view that it gives impressionable young men the idea that women are readily available and 'gagging' for it(is there a more filthy term?)
by no means a prude but porn is very damaging to both users and producers
all this completely takes away from women/men true development and awareness of own sexuality

monkeytrousers · 15/04/2006 20:38

And sixtwosix, nobody is against a little hedge trimming but the porn look while technically existing so to make the 'meat' more visible also has the unsettling side effect of resembling preadolescent girls. And young girls are also being sexualised by the media and fashion.

Original poster
Caligula · 15/04/2006 20:39

Yes that woman - it's like even feminists have to be sex-objects now, for the media to promote them or report on them.

A classic example of them co-opting feminism and turning it into profit

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monkeytrousers · 15/04/2006 20:41

I'm doing a degree in the History of Modern Art, design and Film, which is basically a study of modern western culture post rennaisance onward. Covers a lot of bases which you can choose to specialise in.

monkeytrousers · 15/04/2006 20:42

I should be writing it now of course but here I am....grr

HelloMama · 15/04/2006 20:45

mmm, that sounds interesting! I'm interested in the subject from a health perspective as i work in sexual health / PSHE education. I also think a lot about how this fits into domestic violence and that sort of arena. Its certainly very complex.

morningpaper · 15/04/2006 20:45

I agree sophable about the penetration-based notion of sex being a real problem.

lilstarry1 · 15/04/2006 20:56

I'm a feminist, loud and proud, and I'm really hoping I can instil similar values in my DD.
Being a feminist is about embracing and understanding my sexuality, when I was growing up I was always told that I held a great deal of power and responsibility..

Not to be argumentative, and in the spirit of playing devils advocate ... what about the minority of women who feel empowered by porn? I'm not agreeing with it, but I'm part of a few communities where the topic often comes up, and some women have continually asserted they feel empowered by their sexuality and the submissive role many men play in porn.

To go off on a complete tandem, I did some study into children's toys and role stereotypes, you'd be horrified to realise just how many toy brochures present girls as princesses and mermaids (characters of imagination) and boys as firemen and policemen (characters of RL roles).. what do we expect when so many children are growing up observing their parents fuked up marriages and crp TV?

:(

Original poster
Caligula · 15/04/2006 21:04

Good observation lil I'd not clocked that about the princess mermaid thing and how girls are encouraged to retreat into fantasy from day 1.

That minority who are empowered by porn - like all "feminists" the media like, they are the minority, aren't they, but the media put them forward as if they are an equal number to those who are disempowered by it.

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Socci · 15/04/2006 21:10

Very depressing article Sad

monkeytrousers · 15/04/2006 21:16

There are many 'feminism's' - this is often used as a rhetorical tool to undermine feminism on the whole - regardless of the fact that conflict and debate is an essential part of cooperation. Feminism is still in some respects in it's infancy and I think it must abandon the cultural determinism that came of of academia in the last few decades. The language is impenetrable to the average person and quite frankly the idea that gender is a construct devoid of biology is absurd.

Girls will be more attracted to princesses and boys to soldiers - the main problem as been that men and women have put more value onto the masculine qualities when they exist as complementary essentials. That is not to say that women should be forced to accept these dumbed down roles as men shouldn't either. I'm going off on a tangent sorry..what about the minority of women who feel empowered by porn?

Do you mean watching or performing in porn? It's a myth that women aren't turned on by graphic images like porn, they are just more likely to feel vaguely threatened by it too - and all at the same time - men generally don't. That's why for men, porn is less complicated.

For women who are turned on by graphic images, me included, you have a mind and imagination, you can pick up a book, you can close your eyes and use your brain - but its difficult, we are so saturated with porn the first thing that comes to mind is a pornographic image. I wonder what people fantasized about before porn.

Wha I'd say to them is great, feel empowered, but why does you empowerment have to be predicated on the visceral abuse and suffering of others? You do not have to surrender your morals to your libido - you can get your kicks from porn manga, no one is actually being subjected to anything there, or real Anais Nin, the maquis de Sade. Don't be lazy.

monkeytrousers · 15/04/2006 21:19

read anais nin..

winnie · 15/04/2006 21:22

oh god, your post made me depressed and I haven't even read the article yet :( I have a 16 year old dd and I often think "we need a new dose of feminist conscious-raising"

Will read article now.

lilstarry1 · 15/04/2006 21:25

Unfortunately humankind IS lazy, surely that's why society has so many problems?!I do agree that there are healthy alternatives, and I was talking more about women IN porn..sadly, I can't see the porn industry shrinking. I'm pretty sure even cavepeople were drawing sexy images.

That's another thing that bugs me (apologise for wandering away from the topic a little!).. why is sex/sexuality frequently referred to as "dirty" or "rude" or "naughty" ... I mean, all of these are words we teach children in a negative context, and then we expect them not to have sexual hang ups? I genuinely believe part of the problem is societies contradictory approach. Just look at the magazines teenage girls are presented with.. 1/2 of them criticise celebrities for being too thin, whilst running articles showing 'fat' celebrities. It's ridiculous. I'm sure if we could boost the self-confidence of our young females this sex crisis wouldn't be such a pressing concern.

It's all about empowerment, at the moment the wrong people (the minority of people in control of the media/porn industry) hold the power, I just wish we could give it back to the young women/men.. teach then alternatives. I can with my DD but it will require a constant struggle against society.

(apologies for rambling, am rather tired and may just disappear off to bed!)

Pruni · 15/04/2006 21:31

Interesting thread.

What I have been finding weird over the past few years is the prevalent attitude amongst my female peers (who are smart, educated, funny, and would see themselves as reaping the benefits of earlier feminist work) that the whole lad culture, tits-out-and-why-don't-we-all-enjoy-them, porn-friendly sort of attitude is a gigantic victory for women. One friend told me she hoped her sex life did indeed resemble a porn movie (nobody needs to hear that from a friend...). Another reckons that women really need to get better at dealing with sleazy comments, as challenging them just makes us look bad Shock - and wtf is the problem with some random guy telling you he admires your tits? That sort of thing.

The trouble is, you get women who: work, earn money, needn't marry or even live with a man, can choose whether to have children or not, etc, and they see the permission they've been 'given' not to be put off/shocked/uptight by porn as an extension of those 'victories'. And by doing so they seem to be either playing right into the hands of men or confusing the poor buggers so much that they retreat until they're about 38 in order to do the shagging around that they think they must be entitled to.

Socci · 15/04/2006 21:42

People who have this attitude that they don't need anyone and can shag around for the rest of their lives are going to be sad and lonely when they get old.

I must live on a different planet from some people because I can honestly say the idea of ones sex life resembling a porn film is something I find laughable and stupid rather than something to aspire to. However, I must admit that I have considered waxing in the past -- but for bikini wearing rather than anything to do with sex.

monkeytrousers · 15/04/2006 21:42

Of course we're lazy, but we also have a remarkable record of making the effort when it's needed. Uncontained 'free market' capitalism consumerism (and porn is an essential part of this) is the real culprit here. The only power we have as a society is the power of where we spend our money. We can affect change quicker this way than any other, as the anti-war marches showed.

But like I said there's nothing wrong with erotica - it's the industrial application of it for profit that is immoral. Porn, like the drugs trade, is unarguably part of that. In reality though it doesn't 'cost' us anything to stay away from porn, in fact it can only improve things. I don't miss it, and instead of feeling the momentary catharsis of orgasm (or shopping - always be wary of catharsis, it only works if it's constantly reenacted) I get a more fundamental gratification.

I don't know what you mean about 'dirty' 'naughty' etc. In what context are you talking about them?

And rather than empowerment, I'd suggest a shift towards 'confidence'. I don't know what empowerment means except its a vague attempt at flattery. If we know what we're talking about we have no need to feel empowered because we are already confident. Forget empowerment - it's a trick.

spacedonkey · 15/04/2006 21:42

Very depressing indeed, this whole pornification of culture. Agree it's something we need to be fighting against Sad

Original poster
Caligula · 15/04/2006 21:44

It is actually very sad that someone could aspire to their sex-life being as sterile and contrived as a porn film. It's also a really interesting phenomenon, this retreat from reality into safe cliched behaviour.

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Socci · 15/04/2006 21:52

This "pornification" has surely been happening for years though (at least 10)? Ibiza uncovered, etc was a symptom of that.