Would I be a terrible woman if i advise my DD's to act in a way so they are less likely to be assaulted.

[Rubytuesdayy]

With respect to lit streets, chaste clothes, state of drunkenness etc etc? Or would I be victim blaming prior to teh event. I KNOW that rape is the fault of the rapists, but I just want my DD's to be safe.

I know 4 people who were raped (including me) and none of them was drunk. None of them was out on their own, or wearing tight clothes, or doing anything that comes under the "safety measures" people seem so attached to. I find reading threads like this a bit surreal really because people who have never been raped discuss things with such passion and really stick to their guns even when people who have actually been raped, or people whose friends and loved ones have been raped, tell them that their views don't really chime with reality. It's like watching a bunch of women who've never been pregnant discussing childbirth - some of what they say will be vaguely accurate but when it comes down to the nitty gritty those who know what they're talking about are those who have actually been there. The way actual rape victims are dismissed on threads like this is quite disheartening really.

CailianDana I've never been raped, and I know its been nothing to do the so called safely measures. I know thats its down to the fact that I havent encounter a rapist. I get passionate on threads like these on dispelling rape myths as the sad truth it has been down to luck sorry can't think of a better word then down to judgement.

cailin I totally agree. Fantastic post and you've managed to articulate what I wanted to say without being offensive :)

BlackOut - I've read your posts and they are spot on in my view.

Handbag :)

Caillin I wholeheartedly agree with your post of 20:31.

"None of them was out on their own, or wearing tight clothes, or doing anything that comes under the "safety measures" people seem so attached to."

Does that mean they never happen? No. No one has said that rape only happens in those situations or that people who find themselves in those situations are in any way to blame if they do get raped.

I don't really see why you are arguing against points that haven't been made. I can see that others got tired of it too.

I don't think it's healthy to teach women what they can do to avoid rape - restrictions on a person's way of life are not helpful. And you're not talking of the minor inconvenience of turning a rucksack around here - you're talking about mega-restrictions on peoples' lives.

Take the walking home example - when does that apply from? I used to regularly work late in London before I had children. And take public transport home, alone. When is the cut-off time? Should I have said, Oh I can't go on the tube, because it's dark and past 9pm? Was I taking a risk? I don't think so, because people have stated on this thread that they were stranger raped at 5pm in daylight wearing jeans and a jumper.

Nooka put it beautifully this morning - and she was right - you're clutching at straws.

Running, do you think the same thing about not going that advice to help avoid attacks in general? Obviously there are plenty of organisations out thre who disagree with you (including the ones linked to earlier on the thread) Most of us have pointed out several times that the advice we're talking about is the same advice we would give our sons - we are not making differences for women and we are not focussing specifically on rape.

Re your tube example - the whole risk thing was actually explained quite well on a link that it's provided earlier. In any case, just because some people have been stranger raped at 5pm while wearing jeans does not mean that no one has ever been raped on the tube at night. I don't really see what your point is tbh. How does the fact that something happened at a certain time elsewhere mean that you are not at risk of it happening to you somewhere else at a different time? Flimsy.

Because, Bumbley, you're advocating advice given to daughters about chaste clothes, not getting drunk, staying in well lit areas. That's what the thread is about. The op was asking about giving this advice to her daughters. To stop them being attacked.

So - you know someone has been stranger raped at 5pm - perhaps we should tell our daughters not ever to be out alone at 5pm? If not, why not - they would be reducing the risk of being raped according to your philosophy.

And if you're so risk averse, why only be risk averse at a certain time of day? Stranger rape can, and has happened at any time of the day or night. So should women never be out alone? Perhaps chaperoning at all times would be the answer - I always wanted to be in a Jane Austin novel...

Running, I am not the OP. I haven't talked about 'chaste' clothes and I would give the same advice about not getting drunk, staying in well lit areas etc to my sons as well because it is general safety advice. It is not specific to rape and it is not specific to women. That has been said countless times on this thread by many different posters, not just me.

I think someone mentioned earlier that the evening rush hour time was actually quite a risky time for attacks in general. I think the above general safety advice applies at any time of the day for both men and women. Re. Reducing risks, I'll refer you again to that link of i'll's because it put it quite well.

I will agree with you about wanting to be in a Jane Austin novel though. :)

Yes, But I'm Lizzie Bennett.

"The op was asking about giving this advice to her daughters. To stop them being attacked"

No, the OP was asking about giving them this advice to REDUCE THE RISK of them being attacked. There is a difference.

op the thing is there is nothing wrong with highlighting a risk there is nothing wrong with making your children aware that not everybody is decent there is nothing wrong with making any person aware of sensable precautions against any crime.that's not really a sisterhood letting down thing it's exercising logic

There is something wrong with having to wear chaste clothes and say for example using personal grooming habits of any perticular gender as an excuse for widespread rapes because that's what it is an excuse for a criminal act providing rapests with this excuse and accepting it as a reason is letting down the sisterhood

I guess that what I mean is take precautions against every crime you can but accept that some things have apsolutly nothing to do with rape at all.
The vast majority of people accept that rape is a violent crime comitted against the victim it's a power and control issue and the blame lies soley on the shoulders of the perp not on the shoulders of the person who was raped,it's not much of a strech to also accept that blaiming anything other than the perp is excuse providing and victim blaming and could be concidered to be coluding.

no matter how many lipsticks you buy or where you shave how you dress or what reason you personally have for doing these things if you claim they contribute towards rape that's a problem.

No, nothing about reducing the risk. Just about wanting them to be safe. Which we all want, obviously.

18 years ago I was raped I was in a open public building beaten and raped by a group of men all 4 of them were convicted.

I was wearing a baggy sloppy tracksuit and obviously pregnant at the time the men who did it didn't do it because of my appearence they didn't do it because society programed them to think it was ok,they didn't do it because they thought I was hot,they didn't do it because of yours or my views on how we percive any gender,they didn't do it because of any thing other than them being violent criminals. I know it wasn't my fault and I know they don't warrent there behaviour being excused in any way

I've been reading this thread since the beginning and it's so frustrating to see the same people having the same back-and-forth for pages on end. You basically agree, but are pulling each other apart over semantics!

Tbh, I did modify my behaviour when I was younger and out on the town, and young and simply out and about in normal life too, and to a point I did live in fear a bit - I found that when I dressed even slightly revealingly I attracted an unpleasant attitude from men, they felt justified in speaking to/about me a certain way and it didn't happen to the same degree when I was more covered up. Drunk twats in bars making lechy comments weren't rapists, but they were enough to put me off dressing how I wanted. I'd also get shouted at by random blokes in the street for no reason other than being young and female (I'm no Elle MacPherson), and it made me feel very vulnerable.

I have been beaten up once by a mugger, but I am certain I narrowly escaped sexual assault by strangers twice by pure luck, as I got to a safe place before the people following me reached me (on the second occasion they were discussing what they were going to do to me so I could hear them). All three occasions were late at night when walking home alone (sober as it happens).

This country is fucked up in its attitudes to women, but I don't believe it's helpful to ignore basic practicalities just to uphold a moral standpoint about rape myths. Dressing 'modestly' for example clearly won't stop you being raped, but it may keep you off the radar of the non-rapist twats that enjoy making women uncomfortable and hassling them for fun, and that's worth it in my book.

I hope I've explained that clearly, gawd knows this thread is long enough without my tuppence! :)

No one is saying that the OP is wrong in wanting her DC to be safe. People are just pointing out that some of the measures she has syggested will have no impact on their risk of being rapes, sad but true.

Many of us have agreed that not getting drunk and having a plan to get home are good pieces of advice for all sorts of safety reasons.

I have to disagree about discouraging those who like to make women feel uncomfortable. If somone is that kind of arsehole they will do it whatever the woman is wearing. I say this as someone who never does and never has worn skimpy clothes.

Socknickingpixie I am so sorry to hear about your horrific experience. Thank you and everyone else for sharing their experiences on this thread too.

That link has a fairly odd view of risk management. If I were given something like that by a student I'd send it back with lots of red ink and be worried that they really hadn't understood the discipline at all. Risk management is not about minimizing or even primarily about reducing risk. Life is all about taking risk, we do it all the time, frequently because we anticipate that we will be rewarded by achieving our objectives (in this context finding a partner, having an enjoyable evening out or simply going about our daily lives). Risk management is about being aware of risk, analysing it for a better understanding, evaluating the likelihood and consequence and then taking reasonable action in order to achieve our objectives in the light of the uncertainty/risk.

Most risks have multiple causes, for rape there are in general fundamentally two. One someone: who wants to rape. Two: someone who can be raped by that person. You need both for a rape to occur (in the same way that for fire you need a heat+oxygen+fuel). All the rest is really essentially noise.

For whatever reason all the focus is on the latter, as if if only there weren't people to rape it would all be just fine. Which is frankly rather bizarre. If in my professional capacity someone presented such a lopsided analysis to me I'd tell them they needed to do some more work. For example when there are known rapists on the loose why is it never suggested that all men are under curfew while they look for the rapist? No men about = no rapist (assuming that they have enough victim reports to know that the rapist is a man). It's always women that are told to moderate their behaviour, taking on the frankly more likely risk of excessive fear, curtailment of activities, and somehow the blame for the rapist because if only there weren't any women the crime could not occur.

The risk of being raped is a high lifetime risk, but the risk of being raped by a stranger on any one trip away from home is very very low. Knowing the risk and accepting that there is little you can do but choosing to live your life the way you wish to anyway is as much a way to manage the risk of being raped as wearing a burka and never being alone. The effect on the likelihood or the consequence of being raped is almost certainly marginal. The suggestion that changing your behaviour in this sort of manner is 'excellent risk management' and not doing so is 'poor risk management' is factually incorrect and absolutely victim blaming. There simply are some risks that we as individuals can do very little about. It's a bit scary, but we have to live with it.

Oh and bumbley I won't be telling either of my children not to walk home alone, as I walk by myself on a regular basis. I am not 'putting myself at risk' my body is not some sort of lure that needs to be removed from public.

sockknickingpixie I'm so sorry for what happened to you.

You're all very brave giving personal examples to try and educate and I hope some lurkers find the examples helpful.

Posters are then saying 'but, but, so what if you didn't get raped at 1am in a dark alley. Someone might.' Dismissing what the victims of crime have to say because it doesn't fit in with what you erroneously believe. I find the lack of empathy and compassion astonishing.

Your DD is going to be told by the whole of the rest of society, that she's got to be careful not to be raped and that it will be her fault if she is.

She doesn't need that message from her mother.

If she gets raped, if you've lined up with the crowd that says rape victims have some responsiblity for their rape, then she's going to feel that she is partly responsible and that will delay her recovery.

If you're happy to take that risk, go ahead, tell her that she can prevent getting raped by her behaviour.

The only modification to her behaviour that she could ever make to prevent being raped, is to not be in the same space as a man ever, because until he rapes you, you don't know which men are rapists and which aren't.

But that's not really achievable as men are 50% of the population and she's bound to be in contact with them some time and sometimes she'll be alone with one and hey, she may even want to be!

Just hope that he's the son of someone who has taught their boy-child not to be a rapist, instead of someone who has concentrated only on teaching their girl-child not to be a rape victim.