.... to be fed-up when people moan about not being about to conceive DC 2/3/4/5/6/whatever

[AuntieDoris]

... when I can't even manage to get pregnant with number 1?

I know it doesn't make any difference to me but it still unreasonably winds me up :(

Sorry, fat fingers slipped!

I just wanted to say that of course the OP is NBU to have those thoughts. She is going through much pain and such emotional pain does little to make us rational. However, of course the pain of secondary infertility can also consume a person. I'm sure it is different but equally painful. I have been fortunate with my fertility but I know my desire to have a second far outweighed my desire to have a first.

The reason I wanted to post was because, although my situation is different, I understand how irrational grief and emotion can make you feel. My mother was killed by a drunk driver when I was 9mths pregnant. DH had already lost his father young and within 3yrs of my mother's death, the remaining two GPs died. I have spent years turning away and tuning out when friends complain about their mothers and/or their MIL. Often over the silliest things. More often than not when I click on active convos there will be a thread whining about mothers or MILs. Mostly, I cope and hide them but sometimes I seriously have to fight the urge to jump on the thread and scream at how lucky they are to have parents living beyond their mid 50s. I am bitter, no denying that especially about my mother's death.

So whilst I understand the sentiment of getting angry at other people not appreciating what they have, I never think someone else's pain is less than mine because it simply doesn't work like that.

Of course the OP has every right to feel pain. It was just that the title made it sound as though others don't have as much right.

TTC for just over a year doesn't seem a massively long time to me as I took much longer. I also know lots of people who took that long and longer to conceive completely naturally. But it's all relative. If you conceive quickly or expect to it must seem like a very long time.

If my miscarriages have taught me anything, it's that EVERY woman who is suffering from ANY kind of infertility is going through the same kind of hellish nightmare. It's never ending, and the memories stay with you for an eternity.

The worst things I heard after every mc was that "Oh at least you've got one". "Oh but you don't have a problem conceiving, so that's okay". But to have something and then have it taken away was the hardest thing I have ever had to go through in my life. Yes, having my DD made it easier to cope with, but then I knew exactly what I was missing out on with each mc, which was horrible.

I felt worthless as a woman. I didn't even feel I was a woman...I was like a fake walking around.

My advice to you, would be stop concentrating on her people/women and start concentrating on yourself. It will happen, and it happens for everyone at different times. My lowest point was being angry at pregnant women I saw on the street, but you just don't know what kind of hell they've been through to get to have that baby - they may have suffered a long time like you or me.

Milkyways I think you've hit the nail on the head for me in saying that when you already have one you know exactly what you're missing.
For my first pg my baby was a bump until it arrived but the second time it was more real. I wanted it more because I knew exactly what I was getting and all it would entail iyswim. So as much as having one child can be seen as making it easier I can easily see how for some it might make it harder. Esp as lissie said if your child is actually asking you for a sibling .
But that is my feeling and others on here who have tried for a long time to conceive their first and subsequent children have agreed with the op which just goes to show that every experience is individual.
I think the 'at least you have one' and 'you don't have a problem conceiving' comments, hurtful as they are, are probably just people trying to say something positive in a cack-handed way when they don't really know what to say.

DL - no we're not 'friends'. I do know her story though. Having been here some years that's inevitable.

Iggi said something last night which encapsulates my fears about this thread:

'I am a regular on recurrent miscarriage threads, and I am starting to wonder now having read this thread whether others on those threads who do not have any dcs think I should stop "moaning" and leave.
Wish I'd never clicked on this, I thought we were all in this together '

That's my problem with this and it isn't personal to anyone's issues or story. Nobody should be made to feel like that on a website dedicated to support. Obviously I'm glad you didn't feel like that but that does not remove the basic problem in my view.

I think for me personally the idea of secondary infertility is agonizing. ME personally. I was so desperate trying for our first but I still had a whole life away from parenting and babies to escape into. If we didn't get pregnant we had alternate plans to throw ourselves into (travel etc etc). I didn't really know what I was missing out on aside from my wholesome vision of parenting.

Now that I am a parent our world is all about babies and children - we are surrounded by it every day. I know in real terms how much I love being a mum and I want nothing more in life than to have another. So of course secondary infertility is a major fear for me and I would be gutted if we were unable to be successful this time around.

But I dont' think you can really gage these things until you are there. If your dealing with primary infertility your not really in a position to disuss secondary infertility and vice-versa TBH.

Clearly infertility of any sort is heartbreaking.

Northernlurker - I haven't read the whole thread, but what you say iggi's written further back had not even crossed my mind...and I'm a regular on a recurrent miscarriage thread too. This is just a very distressing thread.

I would think, for most women, it would be worse TTC a first baby, than TTC DC2, a much wanted sibling. I find it a bit OTT when people automatically say "it's just as bad whatever your situation". After all it is a great and life changing thing to become a mother, so my especial sympathies to anyone TTC their first.

But this may be coloured by my own experience - isn't everything we write and feel ? - where I was TTC DC1 for a year and much more worried and distressed at times, whereas DC2 was conceived much more easily.

Good luck to all ! It can take time and still happen one day !

Its all just so personal to the person going through it and therein lies the problem. As I said, we were more desperate for our second than our first. If we hadn't had any I could have changed my life towards a different focus but after my first, we were already there so no 'doing something else'. When DS1 was born we were both happy but very shellshocked as we didn't have a clue what to expect but the morning DD1 was born was one of the happiest moments of my life. DH actually cried when he hadnt with our first and I think that was because he could see the potential if that makes sense. Whereas, first time around we didn't really know what we were missing.

OP, you have all my sympathies, even if you are BU. I know I am with regards the mother and MIL threads. I don't think the time of year helps with the nights drawing in and the big build up to Christmas. Good luck x

I've just read more of the thread (and posts before mine) - which perhaps I should have done before posting. So my post is just my view on things - but as I said it is coloured by my own experience. As I waited so long for my first I have some idea of the sadness behind others experiences and views. Love and good luck to all once again - it's been a lucky week for me - I found my watch lost on the school field ! - perhaps it could be for someone else too ?

I agree with the pp who said it is really difficult to comment to see things from the other side. If you are suffering with primary infertility then you obviously haven't any personal experience of secondary infertility and if you are suffering with secondary infertility even if you were ttc a long time with your first the fact that it has resulted in a child will make looking back on it less bad than for someone who is currently living it.

Milkyways you make some v.good points but also illustrate how difficult it is to say anything on this topic without inadvertently offending.

You say 'it will happen' but actually, for a lot of people it won't. And when you are ttc your first and everything seems impossible, you think you might end up in that situation yourself.

As I've said, I've experienced primary infertility and am currently in the situation of being completely in the dark about how trying for a second will be, though I expect it to be tough/impossible. But now I am reminded of my friend who started to ttc straight after marriage in her mid-thirties, and after failed IVFs and years of trying naturally it is already too late for her and it will not happen. No matter how many times you say 'it will happen' to her, it won't. It's too late.

Not trying to point the finger at you, just saying that infertility is distressing to anyone touched by it. 'At least you have one,' 'At least you don't know what you're missing', 'At least you can have lie ins', 'You should just relax/stop trying' 'It will happen' are all phrases that should go straight into the fiery infertility bin of doom.

Another thing: I think the thread is distressing, but useful. It will no doubt make people from both sides of the fence (and those from more fertile lands...) more aware of all the issues involved.

I have to agree about the 'it will happen' comment.

I've read 3 or 4 people on this thread alone say that and it has shocked me each time. For some people it simply won't happen regardless of how much relaxing or travelling they do. For whatever reason, they will never conceive. That is heartbreaking and devastating but sadly true.

I've been following this thread, though haven't been contributing as I've (uncharacteristically) found it too upsetting. Now I've feeling a bit more level about it, I have to say I agree with you MysteriousHamster. Some women are not going to be able to have children. I may be one of them. I may not. I don't know. When people say "It will happen for you, I know it will", even though it's meant in a lovely, kind, well-meaning way, I find it doesn't help. I want to say "How? How do you know? You don't know that at all. It might not." I don't of course, because I don't want to upset or offend them :)

I'm really pleased that, by and large, this thread has been friendly and supportive. I've had my eyes opened to the pain so many people are experiencing and my heart goes out to them.

I am glad the thread continued but sadly whilst I believe a few people on mumsnet have understood the grief of any infertility I doubt this 14 page thread is going to educate so many people.

What pisses me off the most in my little bubble of infertility is the complete and utter moronic statements made to me by very close friends and relatives. I am astounded by some of them and actually feel like I sometimes have a dirty little secret that shouldn't be discussed.

My own mother who is wonderful if every single way WILL NOT call my stillborn son by his name, she still talks about it as "that poor baby" and of course that makes me feel guilty that I was somehow the cause. I wasn't, I nearly died giving him as much chance of life that I could but still i feel that somehow I was to blame...

Throughout my mere 4 miscarriages and 1 stillbirth I allways feel like I should be apologising to someone and that is weird. I have had other mothers ignore me, laugh in my face at what I went through, my mum can't talk about it, people look anxious if I talk about my son and all the time I am feeling like a bloody idiot that maybe imagined it all....it's not right, there is still so much educating to do.

What I love about this forum is that fact that on a lot of boards it is talked about. Lissie doesn't know me but I have followed her story for years, quietly sympathising and holding her hand. What would be an absolute tragedy is if people feel they can't discuss it or post about it...

MysteriousHamster - You are absolutely right and I completely agree with you. I can only go by my own experience, as it did happen for me (am 6 months pregnant on our 5th try) and having spoken to OP before, I can only reassure her that with the correct treatment and support, there is hope. But I completely agree how what I say may have been upsetting for you or anyone else. So I profusely apologise for that.

Oh spamspamspam :( at your mums attitude.

Spamspamspam, I held it together until reading your post. Much love to you and your son, and the others.

Good luck, OP.

Milkyways - you didn't offend me as such, I just knew there were people out there it could hurt, but also that you probably didn't mean it like that. It's just so tricky!

(((Spamspamspam)))

And good luck to everyone who needs it

"I was so desperate trying for our first but I still had a whole life away from parenting and babies to escape into. If we didn't get pregnant we had alternate plans to throw ourselves into (travel etc etc). I didn't really know what I was missing out on aside from my wholesome vision of parenting. "

I'm sorry, but what the fuck?

You have no idea, NONE, how your "whole life" of "travelling etc." would have looked to you if you had never managed to conceive.

How dare you come on here with that complacent bullshit and start pontificating about how fine you would have been with something that never happened.

But how awful you will feel if you NOW don't get exactly what you want.

This, this is the kind of shit that women suffering from infertility should never have to listen to.

"If your dealing with primary infertility your not really in a position to disuss secondary infertility"

But if you've never dealt with either, and probably never will, it's entirely reasonable to come onto a thread like this and tell people who are afraid they'll never get to experience motherhood that their opinions don't count?

Are you fucking serious?

Yes, I read that and raised an eyebrow. We simply don't have any alternate plans for not having children. Not getting to be parents will be devastating. Travelling won't make up for that.

But then we've also had it put forward a few posts up the reasoning that if you're childless you can't know what you're missing which I find a hugely insensitive thing to say. Like I said a few pages back I've seen it said before but never on mn. Until now.

Shecutoff - that poster hasn't said she hasn't suffered from infertility. We don't know how quickly she conceived. Personally I suppose I've thought that infertility means trying for well over a year, more like two, without success but clearly some couples start to feel they're struggling with ttc well before that.