why do church schools have such good reputations?

[startingtobehalloweenylover]

The best school in my area is a Catholic one and it would seem from various threads on here that this is the case in a lot of other places too...

but why? is it a respect thing? do church schools seem to have better "control" (for want of a better word) of the children... is it the school environment... is it just the kids that go there?

hmmmm

No there isn't but you don't need a church school for that!!

Those who don't attend church are not immoral!!

I don't think that Catholic schools are the problem I think it is the other failing schools. Where I live we are lucky enough to ahve a nuber of very good primaries, both Cof E, Catholic and local primaries of no faith affiliation. All children in area get a good education and a choice of schools. The church school my dd will be attending takes a number of pupils every year who are not Catholics and children of all abilities are represented in the classroom.

A few miles down the road are some dire schools 2 non faith ones and a catholic. These are bad schools becuase they are in areas of depriavtion that have long been ignored and the school managemnt is dire to say the least. Closing my local catholic primary will not help these children, improving their schools will.

How do they discriminate GS? The cofe school i went to had a large proportion of children who were c of e but also had some non beliefs, muslim and jewish children. Parents were asked prior if they minded the children joining in nativity plays, occasional church attendance, hymn practise, harvest festival etc etc and none of them objected. They could easily have. Although i am going back a few years now obviously

GS, that's a fair point that troubles many Christians who actually stop to think about the impact of faith-based education. In fact, as it happens, we wanted a faith-based education for ds as local as possible to home and that was a factor in choosing his non-academically-selective private primary nearby. It is overtly Christian in ethos but inclusive - all religions are taught about fully, and the assemblies use prayers and readings from other faiths (including non-Judaeo-Christian ones).
But then of course, by making this choice, we enter the pariah's arena of "paying for your child's education". You can't win really. Plenty of people on here will happily take a pop at that too.
By all means let's remove ALL faith-based education from state control and subsidy, and make anyone who wants such an education pay - maybe subsided by the religion in question, as in France. Maybe that will sort the sheep from the goats. I have an open mind about this solution - I agree it might well be fairer in some people's eyes.
But what was upsetting me here was the criticism of people who observe their faith. The two issues are and should be separate.

Marina I love you will you marry me x E

Can someone please explain why, if you embrace your faith within the family and attend church, there is any need for a school that takes only children of that faith? Don't all schools aim to foster a moral and respectful environment? I know our, non-church, school does.

actually dds school will take anyone I should think at the moment as the rolls are falling sharply (thats everywhere in Dorset not just her school)

This thread is moving too fast and I'm waaaay behind!!

QV - I don't know about all faith schools but certainly those around here set their own admission criteria and since it's a small and oversubscribed school with a large catchment it really only takes catholic children. That's discriminatory surely?

I don't have a personal 'beef' with this situation btw, the nature of our catchment area contributes to the fact that all of our local primaries are excellent, faith or non-faith, but I still don't agree with it in principle.

Our rolls are falling here as welL Enid, I have noticed here that the faith schools are managing to cope with the fall in numbers and simply have smaller classes, whereas the multi class entry schools have been making staff redundant, having only just taken on new staff to deal with increasing numbers.

I really do think the answer is to deal with failing schools and at the root of this is the ghettos of poverty that exist in this country. Where I live and work this is made worse by the fact we tend to have a transient population who drift in and out of schools and they all tend to live on the same two estates or in our two areas of bedsit land. Kids die here every year of starvation, we have high rates of sexual abuse and child prostitition, kids living in cramped squalor and moving from bedsit to bedsit while they wait for a council house. All of these problems exist within a few small areas and not surprisingly these children have other things on their mind than SATS. Their parents have been let down time and time again by official agencies and therefore often treat teachers with suspicion and hostility. We need to address these issues rather than laying the blaim at church schools who are doing a good job.

I certainly have no wish to criticise (or otherwise comment on) people who choose faith schools because it is part of what they believe.

My questions are around choice for parents where a faith school is the only otoin, and selection in schools wholly supported in runnung costs by the state. But neither of those issues are down to the children or their parents in the school, anyway.

I agree with marina's analysis of the role of committed altruism and it's role in the ethos of a school - and especially for the children of venal hypocrites - LOL!

Also, we have to recognise the fact that this is a legacy of the churches role in providing education for the uneducated of the time. The state has languished around not picking up it's full responsibility in this respect.

Well exactly, it's the fact that these schools with their discriminatory practises exist that appalls me. I can't blame anyone for taking advantage of the system if it exists and it is to your benefit.
And though I think all religions are equally, um, fact-free, I was specifically describing Creationism as mumbo jumbo and I certainly stand by that. In fact, I think the Archbishop of Canterbury would agree with me.

Blu, you remind me that "committed altruism" is not the province of any one faith, or indeed of none. I have first hand experience of Christian venal hypocrisy in action and you just have to avoid those families, quietly fume and turn the other cheek. Hoping all the while that their children will grow up to become anti-globalisation, bender-inhabiting, material-society-refuseniks, or even take Holy Orders

Yes, but that was in the 14th century Blu..we have moved on a bit since then!

Ofsted report from my dd1s CofE school - apparently the govt thinks it is good value for money rather than the drain on the state depicted in places in this thread:

Enids dds school is a very good school with excellent features. The
headteacher provides excellent leadership and staff work with a shared sense of purpose
and complete commitment to improving standards. Children join the school with broadly
average attainment and make a very good start at the Foundation Stage. Pupils usually
make very good progress throughout the school, and by the time pupils are eleven their
attainment is above and in many areas well above the national average. Standards of literacy
and numeracy are already very high and are improving further. Staff promote strong values
and consequently the behaviour and personal development of the pupils are very good, and
relationships are excellent within a warm yet firm school community. The school provides a
rich and deep curriculum and very good value for money.

Was the CoE in existence in the 14thC?

Drain on the state? Has anyone said that? I didn't think that was the crux of the argument. Clearly the kids in faith schools would otherwise be in another state-supported school (give or take..)

It's the selection / choice issue that gets debated.

i don't see how selection by church attendance ensures selection of "brighter" kids - i'm not going to pay to read the article, sorry!

no in the 14thC there was no CoE

actually ours is voluntary aided - so selection is 'allowed' to be by the board of governors rather than the LEA.

It continued until 1870 in England though Aloha - near enough in time to affect my great-grandparents, and in many countries worldwide, Christian workers and local people they have trained, alongside non-secular heroes like VSO, are still offering free, non-denominational education where the state cannot provide it.
The protestant church we support in rural Peru through donations of money and supplies is the only one in the area offering free schooling to boys and girls. Of all faiths locally.
Unlike the Black Death, feudal slavery, trial by torture and the oppression of women, not all of our Middle Ages legacies are bad ones

CoE 1534 apparently.Enery the Eighth and all that.

Henry VI, widely considered a loon for his piety in the 1460s and 1470s, set up and endowed a lot of grammar schools - for boys only of course.

Aloha,
My point was purely that it is classed as a CofE school and that the code of entry was regular church attendance!!
I never wanted to go to church nor a church school but was made to by my mum and dad as said was best school in the area and that i would get a better education!!!!
The fact is that we had to go to chapel everyday for assembly as it has it's own chapel within the school grounds, we had to sing hymns etc...
Many people in the area who go to church and wish for theur children to attend this school. It is by far over subscribed with people attending from over 20 mile distances.
I never discriminate and i agree with what you are saying but then my point is to drop the C of E title of the school for the purposes of those who go to church in all hope of their children getting in and then to be dissapointed when they don't due to academic and the acceptance of none attending church students.
I was pushed to go to this school but many parents push for what their beliefs are!!!

In voluntary aided and controlled schools, usually the land and buildings were given by the church or charitable foundation...where a contribution to running costs still exists in a voluntary-aided school, the issue over selection / admission criteria is now v akin to the 'Academy' schols. For an initial (small) investment of £2m an Academy can have a big say in admission, exclude pupils far more readily, and in the case of that 'chain' of acadamies founded by the billionaire 2nd hand car salesman up North, teach creationism.

Entirely different in terms of the altruistic motivation of the churches (or not, in the case of the academies - there is one, for e.g, where the investing business owns the company that has been given the catering contract for 20 years!), but the issues for parents are the same. The acadamies are state funded but have total control over admissions, exclusions, curriculum, and may be the only local choice.