How do we feel about the term "birth rape" to describe non-consensual procedures performed on birthing women?

[dizietsma]

F-word article on the phenomenon.

Now I know a lot of people have objections to the term, and I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the definition, but I am curious about what the distinction could be. Wikipedia explains that the UK legal definition of sexual assault is- "when a person A intentionally touches another person B, the touching is sexual, B does not consent to the touching, and A does not reasonably believe that B consents."

Now from a lot of traumatic birth stories I've read and heard, the only condition above that it might be argued is not entirely met is the condition that "the touching is sexual". Certainly I think it is not the case that MW and doctors perform violent, invasive, harmful, non-consensual procedures on women's genitals during birth because the get off on it (or at least if there are those that do get off on it, they are the Harold Shipmans, the rare, criminal, insane exceptions), but for the women experiencing these procedures on their genitals it is sexual surely? In that it involves their sexual organs being violated?

Certainly the PTSD experienced by women who have had traumatic births seems very similar to the PTSD experienced by women who have been sexually assaulted.

I'm most interested in what people who have had traumatic births think of the term, accurate or no?

It's not just life and death, split-second decisions though Maryz, it can be more routine and mundane assualts. On the last episode of One Born Every Minute I believe a young girl asked the midwife to stop a VE during a contraction and she refused. Being held down, given injections, touched and examined without consent, procedures done without explanation are all violations - and it's not excused by doctor knows best.

I can not stand one born every minute and the reason why is because of examples like you have just noted Moonunit, oh and plus hospital staff gossiping and going on over their coffee in their position of power while treating women like crap. I can not stand it.

I think people who tell women that they will always have full control over their births have a lot to answer.

That's not what anyone says in proper childbirth education, sometimes husbands will have a consent form stuffed into their hands and it's completely beyond the woman's control in order to save lives, but when it's procedures for convenience or money saving purposes, that's what gets peoples gander up.

Surely those that have experienced birth trauma would benefit from the medical profession acknowledging what has happened to them, whether their trauma is a result of malpractice, bad luck or previous history, and offering help to deal with it? That ain't going to happen by using phrases such as "birth rape".

I don't believe birth trauma can ever be eradicated. It is way to complicated and birth is far to unpredictable. Education of both medics and pregnant women would probably help reduce cases.

From reading this thread it would seem that those that have experienced it have struggled to get people to acknowledge what they have been through. I don't think using this term will help. In fact it is likely to have the opposite effect. There is no way any health authority is going to admit to "birth rape" occuring in any of their hospitals without putting up one hell of a fight.

I would suggest that pushing for acknowledgement of lasting trauma following birth and counselling to overcome effects would be a more helpful way forward for those that feel they want change.

"My close relative too had a terrible, badly handled birth where she was treated appallingly, and she also experienced a violent rape as a young teenager. I can say without even asking her she personally would never directly relate the two."

Why in these threads that what a woman may experience in hospital only ever seem to be compared to a violent rape, ergo it couldn't be called rape? Doesn't that belittle the other types of rape which are not violent yet are still rape?

I am sorry you've been put through another humiliation here Um. It is still like what other rape victims experience. 'it couldn't be rape because....'. Some posters on MN are not yet ready to talk about this like an adult because it is well outside their comfort zones and it questions some of their beliefs in the system of medical care.

I have experience of a traumatic birth, sexual assault and I am reasonably knowledgeable about what constitutes a sexual offence, foxytoxin.

To suggest I am out of my comfort zone and not talking about this like an adult is quite insulting and very unhelpful.

foxytocim you are missing the point that rape victims have in fact been raped.

Woman who suffer traumatic births have not. That is not to say they have not experienced something frightenin and violating. But it is not "rape".

I don't suggest that you or anyone else don't know what the legal definition of rape is or what a traumatic birth is. I am fairly widely read myself as are a lot of the people posting on here.

I am saying that until you walk in my shoes or the shoes of others like me, you are being unintentionally insensitive and magrinalizing other people's experiences in the process.

For those who would like to non-judgementally read up about what other people are writing on the topic, this blog is a good starting point.

FYI, it is not 'the media' who started to use the term birth rape, it is people much closer to labouring women who started using the term.

foxy, to state a fact is not marginalising anyone's experience or being judgemental (and certainly not humiliating anyone).

Not sure what you mean by walking in your shoes, I have just told you I have experienced both incidents (but know the difference).

Not every traumatic birth will leave a woman feeling raped.

Some women who have had traumatic births feel like the experience is rape.

There are differences, but just because your traumatic birth did not leave you feeling raped doesn't mean that some women's do not leave them feeling that way.

here is a quote from a knowledgeable person writing for the journal from AIMS.

"Many women's accounts of their experiences I have read seemed more like the descriptions of rape or torture victims than those military or disaster studies. Soldiers at least expect the enemy to try to kill them; women were faced with harmful care from those they expected to be kind - and while inflicting pain on, or exposing, private parts of their body." Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Jean Robinson AIMS Journal, 2007, Vol 19 No 1 (can't do a direct link because the site isn't searchable that way.)

Yes, I know she doesn't say that these women were raped in the current legal definition of rape, and I agree with her that it is not legally rape. That does not mean that women don't walk out of hospitals feeling raped by the experience either.

the whole document is a good read - it isn't about the paragraph really but a great piece in general of PTSD.

Yes, foxy, no one was ever doubting that the feelings and experiences are akin to being raped. There is a massive difference between being raped and feeling traumatised by a terrible experience.

Why is the right to use the term rape so important to this issue?

Is it because those that have suffered the experience of birth trauma don't feel their pain will be taken seriously? Is there some kind of validation in using the term?

balloonballs, rape requires a penis entering the vagina, anus or mouth without consent.

here is a clip that mentions birth rape by a midwife.

within the first 2 minutes

here

And I think you are right in terms of wanting acknowledgement of their trauma but I cannot see why rape is the preferred word.

Yes Scurrey, thanks for that

Was just wondering why there is a movement to have it applied to birth trauma victims.

But foxy even that clip uses the term "essentially" rape which implies that it was used for want of a better word.

sorry balloonballs, I misread your post. I thought you were asking why it was not rape. Apologies.

have you read the entirety of the birthtalk.org link yet and some of the links within the article?

Because the the actual experience for some women is the same as rape and some of the long term emotional damage many women are suffering is the same rape, in brief.

I have books to mark so won't be here much longer on this thread.

I don't think it's outrageous to feel that at all Star, I just wish that we had a term that didn't cause controversy which still relayed the pain you suffered.

I think from this thread alone it's clear that people feel they have to justify their feelings and that's a pity and wrong.

foxy, yes the experience may feel the same and women suffer in the same way -it just doesn't make it rape.