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Original poster

How do we feel about the term "birth rape" to describe non-consensual procedures performed on birthing women?

175 replies

dizietsma · 23/02/2011 12:15

F-word article on the phenomenon.

Now I know a lot of people have objections to the term, and I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the definition, but I am curious about what the distinction could be. Wikipedia explains that the UK legal definition of sexual assault is- "when a person A intentionally touches another person B, the touching is sexual, B does not consent to the touching, and A does not reasonably believe that B consents."

Now from a lot of traumatic birth stories I've read and heard, the only condition above that it might be argued is not entirely met is the condition that "the touching is sexual". Certainly I think it is not the case that MW and doctors perform violent, invasive, harmful, non-consensual procedures on women's genitals during birth because the get off on it (or at least if there are those that do get off on it, they are the Harold Shipmans, the rare, criminal, insane exceptions), but for the women experiencing these procedures on their genitals it is sexual surely? In that it involves their sexual organs being violated?

Certainly the PTSD experienced by women who have had traumatic births seems very similar to the PTSD experienced by women who have been sexually assaulted.

I'm most interested in what people who have had traumatic births think of the term, accurate or no?

OP posts:
Hullygully · 23/02/2011 16:43

bollocks to that. Is the language now so poor that we can't come up with an act-appropriate term?

popcrackle · 23/02/2011 16:50

What an awful thread. I think it causes offence on so many levels.

I had a traumatic birth experience, but did not suffer PTSD and the thought of my gorgeous wonderful squidgy baby being associated with the word rape at such a time I find truly offensive and so wrong. I had good staff too who did not try intervene but for one or another reasons it was traumatic.

edam · 23/02/2011 16:51

Mollys - perhaps then you'd better read up on the issue. Google birth trauma.

popcrackle · 23/02/2011 16:55

Molly I kind of hate your last comment - it is called labour for a reason. I suggest you don't say an insensitive comment like that to anyone who has gone through a traumatic labour experience. Very belittling IMO.

UmYeahLikeTotally · 23/02/2011 17:04

pop I think YOUR comments belittle people like me who recognise the term.

"the thought of my gorgeous wonderful squidgy baby being associated with the word rape at such a time I find truly offensive and so wrong"

Do you not think that I feel it's wrong? That I wish more than anything that it hadn't have to happen to me, that I didn't HAVE to use that word to describe something that happened to me in childbirth?!!!

People are acting like women like me use it for shock value, to seek attention. Actually, outside of this thread I have told 2 people (one of them being my councellor) about my thoughts i.e. liking it to rape. It's not like women are shouting this from the rooftops, casually saying it like people say "facebook raped" FFS!

RunAwayWife · 23/02/2011 17:09

I never heard this term before this but I have to say what a stupid stupid term to use.

RIZZ0 · 23/02/2011 17:13

But Um isn't it enough to say it felt like an assault? Or a violation?

No-one is trying to belittle your awful experience, especially me, but just object to the terminology.

Unless of course you are someone who has previous to your birth actually been raped, and know what that is like in order to directly compare with your birth experience, and be able to say it is the same thing? In which case I would apologise unreservedly.

If not, then could you not see how you, in turn, may belittle the experience of someone who had been sexually assaulted in this way?

RunAwayWife · 23/02/2011 17:13

I am sure the person I know who was raped and beaten while walking home by a stranger who spat on her and ripped her insides apart with a rusty screwdriver that he inserted in to her Virgina would find anyone using this term a fucking moron!

UmYeahLikeTotally · 23/02/2011 17:17

FFS does no one read the thread?!

I CAN SAY IT WAS LIKE RAPE BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN RAPED!!! I know what its like.

UmYeahLikeTotally · 23/02/2011 17:17

FFS does no one read the thread?!

I CAN SAY IT WAS LIKE RAPE BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN RAPED!!! I know what its like.

MollysChambers · 23/02/2011 17:18

Sorry but it IS called labour for a reason. That's a fact not an opinion. It is bloody hard for everyone - even when overall it's a POSITIVE experience.

Acknowledging that fact is not belittling to those that have suffered birth trauma.

It was said in response to MoonUnit who implied that allowing medical staff to "do what they want to you" leads to traumatic births because I disagree with that statement.

MoonUnitAlpha · 23/02/2011 17:20

No Mollys, I mean that attitude that women should just allow medical staff to do what they want, that's there isn't a legitimate reason to withhold/withdraw consent, is what leads to so many traumatic births.

Hullygully · 23/02/2011 17:23

Umyeah - yes of course you can. No one would argue with your right to call it whatever you want.

I think that if we are looking for a generally descriptive term to be used in the future, it needs one all of its own not "like" something. This has nothing to do with your experience.

nancydrewfoundaclue · 23/02/2011 17:24

I think there is an absolute world of difference between a woman who has been raped saying that it felt like they were being raped or acknowleging that it brought feelings of their previous rape to the fore, but I stand by my opinion that to term it "birth rape" is wrong. And makes little sense.

RIZZ0 · 23/02/2011 17:26

Ok Um, I'm really sorry, I missed that post, I didn't realised I'd not read all of them.

It's awful that this happened to you. I imagine the birth itself contained a lot of triggers for you, and it's a complicated issue, however I would still say my last comments in general terms to other who used the term.

Your unique experience is yours, and your feelings are yours, of course. And what you liken any experience to in private talks with your therapist/friend/family is your own business.

The media coming up with such terms for general use though, are not right IMO.

My close relative too had a terrible, badly handled birth where she was treated appallingly, and she also experienced a violent rape as a young teenager. I can say without even asking her she personally would never directly relate the two.

MollysChambers · 23/02/2011 17:31

MoonUnit - I would agree that women should be informed about options / what needs to be done and why. That's pretty basic patient care imo.

popcrackle · 23/02/2011 17:35

What I said applied only to me. In My Opinion only based on my experience, which I don't want to go into here.

Um I certainly did not mean to belittle your experience in anyway and apologise without reservation for the offence caused. I'm very sorry.

UmYeahLikeTotally · 23/02/2011 17:37

I think it does. If women going through this tell you it rape then it fucking well is.

.No-one will acknowledge what happened to me outside of "what do you expect/you were in labour/the doctors want what's best for you and baby". Its excused all the time. Funnily enough,exactly what I believe would have happened with my "proper" rape, had I told anyone at the time.
People want to minimise it; "was it a violation/assault rather than rape?" Sounds exactly like the bullshit comments women get when "proper" raped: "were you drunk/maybe you lead him on" etc etc

mamatomany · 23/02/2011 17:49

I would agree that women should be informed about options / what needs to be done and why.

They also have a duty to themselves to educate themselves as to what might happen and why and the alternatives if any.
I've lost count of the number of threads I used to read on other sites about people who were planning to ask for an epidural and hand their labours over to the medical staff at the first twinge to manage.
You couldn't help but feel that the outcome for those people might not be as good as it could be, but if they are happy to do so it makes the MW and Dr's life easier.
I've had a MW tell me she preferred the 16-20 age group because they do as they are told.

balloonballs · 23/02/2011 17:57

No, um, if a woman says it is the same as rape then it doesn't mean it fucking well is.

Otherwise we'd have to accept if a women, who didn't believe she was worthy of respect and autonomy in her body said that her husband forcing her to have sex isn't rape.

I am truly truly sorry that you've been through such an ordeal but it still doesn't make the term rape appropriate.

Like someone said earlier another term could be found to convey the absolute hell and invasion you suffered.

I

scurryfunge · 23/02/2011 17:57

UmYeah,

I am sorry about your experience but it really wasn't rape by the legal definition. Rape is a criminal offence. No one is trying to minimise your experience at all just explaining a legal term, that's all.

If you really do believe you were raped in the hospital, by all means report it to the police.

UmYeahLikeTotally · 23/02/2011 18:12

Right I am actually going now. I can't take this anymore I'm not strong enough, sorry.

I sincerely hope it doesn't happen to any of you.

balloonballs · 23/02/2011 18:32

Um I'm sorry this thread has upset you, and if I have upset you.

Your posts have certainly made me more aware of the effects that these experiences have on women and I certainly don't want to belittle that it anyway.

Wish you well.

Maryz · 23/02/2011 18:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Crawling · 23/02/2011 18:37

But UmYeah I have too experienced both, I was raped repeatedly as a child and had a painfull forced penetrating medical procedure and say it is not rape you can use it to describe your experience but that does not make it gospel.

People also say being burgled leaves you feeling violated in a similar way to being raped, having your home broken into while you thought you were safe and you personal belongings rummaged through violated, but that is not rape not every experience that leaves you feeling scared and violated is rape.