How do we feel about the term "birth rape" to describe non-consensual procedures performed on birthing women?

[dizietsma]

F-word article on the phenomenon.

Now I know a lot of people have objections to the term, and I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the definition, but I am curious about what the distinction could be. Wikipedia explains that the UK legal definition of sexual assault is- "when a person A intentionally touches another person B, the touching is sexual, B does not consent to the touching, and A does not reasonably believe that B consents."

Now from a lot of traumatic birth stories I've read and heard, the only condition above that it might be argued is not entirely met is the condition that "the touching is sexual". Certainly I think it is not the case that MW and doctors perform violent, invasive, harmful, non-consensual procedures on women's genitals during birth because the get off on it (or at least if there are those that do get off on it, they are the Harold Shipmans, the rare, criminal, insane exceptions), but for the women experiencing these procedures on their genitals it is sexual surely? In that it involves their sexual organs being violated?

Certainly the PTSD experienced by women who have had traumatic births seems very similar to the PTSD experienced by women who have been sexually assaulted.

I'm most interested in what people who have had traumatic births think of the term, accurate or no?

OK, so I've asked MN to delete this thread, and am asking kindly for everyone to quit the conversation now in order to consider other people's feelings on this. Thanks.

I do think if someone experiences this as a rape, no one else is in a position to dismiss those feelings.

OK definitely stepping back now. Can't deal with this

I despise the term being used for anything other than to describe rape.

I see it with increased frequency and it angers me.
I had to shout at my brother recently because he was telling everyone he was "fraped" or facebook raped.

Anyone that thinks that having your status changed or being told to lay on your back rather than move around in labour is akin to being held down and foribly penetrated is a complete and utter wanker.

I am stepping away too I still see a councillors and MHP 8 years on for my repeated rape as a 13-15 YO child resulting in a forced termination. I hte the term frape to.

Disgusting term and pointless as the debate on terminology detracts from the very real issue of woman who were assaulted during labour/delivery.

And what if you are held down and forcibly penetrated in labour? What if that experience feels very much like being raped?

It's not much of a leap to understand that birth assualt could trigger feelings of rape, especially for women who have been raped.

Why are you pulling it?! Move it from "Childbirth" maybe because the newly pregnant come here for advice, sure, but it's an interesting debate.

Personally I'm glad you posted it so I can see what an OTT, bullshit article the F-Word website is publishing.

I had many operations and procedures to recover from my birth and feel/look like a woman again, not to mention many sessions of counselling to recover from my birth experience. I'll never get back what should have been the happy first year with my boy, but I won't be part of this "agenda" loaded term thanks very much.

MoonUnit - Yes but surely triggering feelings of rape in those that have been raped is as a result of the trauma of the rape? A woman who has not suffered in the same way may go through the same experience and not have those feelings.

Well, it's bringing up a lot for you too isn't it RIZZ0? Not intending on upsetting anyone, and as I said in the OP and later in the thread, I can see how it's a loaded term that can obscure the issues and other terms might be better for discussing it, though I think that someone has a right to define their experience how they wish without being attacked. Either way, it's upsetting too many people and I didn't want that.

Mollys - personally I would use the term birth assualt, but women have posted on this thread to say they experienced their births as a rape and I certainly wouldn't dimiss or belittle that experience.

moonunit if someone who has been raped tells me that their experience that it felt very much like being raped then I would not dismiss their feelings - although I am still not comfortable with the term.

However that is not what I am hearing on this thread, or the numerous others that there have been on this subject on MN. What I am hearing is woman who have not been raped saying it felt like rape and I think that is inappropriate. Where do you stop? If someone is robbed or physically assaulted is it appropriate for them to say "well it felt like rape", does the perpetrator of that crime then become a rapist by virtue of the victims feelings?

It also does them a huge disservice, because frankly (and I realise this will sound offensive and it is not my intentioon to offend) it makes genuine vicyims of a terrible ordeal sound slightly hysterical and therefore they are easier to dismiss.

Birth trauma/assault is a serious issue and needs to be addressed properly and assigning incorrect terminology to it doesn't help.

I SAID IT FELT LIKE RAPE AND I HAVE BEEN RAPED!!!

In that case I apologise I didn't see that post. Sorry.

I don't wish to belittle anyones experience either.

My point was that in cases where there has been a traumatic experience in the past I think it's unfair to place blame on medical staff if a chaotic or difficult birth stirs up such feelings and they have not been made aware of the history.

Please people, walk away, can't you see you're hurting people with your comments?

Look, I could say my birth was a "drive by shooting", and people can be all sensitive and say "well if that's your experience, who are we to disagree and belittle you?" but it still wouldn't be true!

Rape is forcing someone to have sex against their will.

If a dentist drills my gum accidentally whilst giving me a filling, and I think he was being careless and didn't like me, would that make him a bad practitioner or an "oral rapist"???

dizietsma - get the thread moved then. This was a bad place to put it.

The Feminist section would have been appropriate, they won't find this too difficult a subject to debate.

I have asked, but MN are dragging their feet. Nothing more I can do apart from appeal to your sense of kindness.

Molly, blame can be squarely put on medical staff if they assualt women by doing things to them against their will regardless of that woman's past. Whether or not the woman experiences the assualt as rape/ like being raped is separate to the fact that the midwife or doctor involved has committed an assualt.

TBH I can't understand why a woman in labour would not give consent to whatever had to be done to get the baby out, however agonising or undignified it might be.

Labour is primarily about the safe birth of the baby.

No wonder so many women endure traumatic births when the prevailing attitude is just to keep quiet and allow those who "know best" to do whatever they want to you.

You could look at it that way I guess.

Or you could look at it as trusting those that are trained to deliver babies and realising that it is called labour for a reason.

Personally I agree with everyone who says that this is not teh right term for this.

Of course if an individual woman wants to say that then that is her perogative. But if we're talking terms getting into newspapers/what things are generally known as then I think "birth rape" is a bad term. For lots of reasons. It confuses what rape actually is (the legal definition), it is so shockworthy as to make it almost impossible to discuss, people will end up (as here) talking about the term rather than all the stuff that's actually happened. And I also think that a lot of traumatising things happen in birth which don't involve penetration and so this term would render them somehow "lesser". I think that birth/labour assault is better - legally and to encompass what is being talked about without any confusion about what the topic actually is.

A lot of people would think, I'm sure, that birth rape is being raped while in labour. Which happens, unfortunately. So birth assault seems, as a general description, better.