How do we feel about the term "birth rape" to describe non-consensual procedures performed on birthing women?

[dizietsma]

F-word article on the phenomenon.

Now I know a lot of people have objections to the term, and I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the definition, but I am curious about what the distinction could be. Wikipedia explains that the UK legal definition of sexual assault is- "when a person A intentionally touches another person B, the touching is sexual, B does not consent to the touching, and A does not reasonably believe that B consents."

Now from a lot of traumatic birth stories I've read and heard, the only condition above that it might be argued is not entirely met is the condition that "the touching is sexual". Certainly I think it is not the case that MW and doctors perform violent, invasive, harmful, non-consensual procedures on women's genitals during birth because the get off on it (or at least if there are those that do get off on it, they are the Harold Shipmans, the rare, criminal, insane exceptions), but for the women experiencing these procedures on their genitals it is sexual surely? In that it involves their sexual organs being violated?

Certainly the PTSD experienced by women who have had traumatic births seems very similar to the PTSD experienced by women who have been sexually assaulted.

I'm most interested in what people who have had traumatic births think of the term, accurate or no?

It is insulting to me as a survior of both rape and a forced medical procedure. Read my first post.

Many many forms of violation are extremely traumatic and cause and trigger PTSD.
Rape is one form of violent violation.
Non-consensual medical violation may well (does) cause terrible memories of rape, of forms of torture, of other violent physical and psychological disturbances.
But that does not mean it has the same definition as rape.

I resist the definition of 'birth rape', but in doing so do not underestimate or downgrade it's currency.

Really sorry that people have had such horrific experiences.

no, it isn't insulting to you for me to feel the way I do about my experiences, or to label them as I feel appropriate. Grow up.

Well why is it insulting for me to say that being held down and having medical professionals force their hands in my body was nothing compared to me being raped and nothing like it my experience I can call it what I like. Grow up.

in fact the pedantry on this thread is insulting to all of us IMO - ffs why are you dissecting who is and isn't allowed to use the word "rape"? If the word "rape" can be widely used as a description of invading soldiers burning houses and looting, it can sure as hell be used as a description of a man deliberately and sadistically shoving his fist up a woman who is screaming in agony.

I think you might have to agree to live and let live on this one.

I agree with the term "birth assault" rather tha "rape".rape is by definition a sexual/violent act, and I think that using that term for a birthing issue allows it not to be taken so seriously.I was given a really rough cervical sweep,without anyone forwarning me i was about to have one,and it did leave me feeling assaulted,and as an action on my person without my permission it was an assault,but it wasn't a rape.

My thoughts entirely . Hope you're OK.

I'm just waiting for the onslaught of shit to hit us now for being too controversial.

Has anyone actually thought of the fact that NO woman in the world would WANT to have to use this term to describe her child's birth?!

Unfortunately it is a term that was forced on me after months of the word rape, rape, rape, rape, rape going around in my head everytime I thought about my experience.

I think people are too busy trying to out-wiki each other and "win the argument" to five any thought to how we must actually feel about what happened to want to use such a term

pedantry is so much more fun than actually listening and trying to empathise, isn't it.

sorry - last post was directed at stiflersmom

Hm, a little concerned by the personal attacks on here upsetting people who have been through trauma (whatever you choose to call it), can we try and keep it a bit less personal? I may ask for the thread to be deleted otherwise.

*Sometimes, the needs of the unborn childmust take precedence over the wants of the mother.

Is it assult for a mother to not allow a procedure to take place, that subsequently leads to damage to a newborn?*

I don't think that's the law. As I understand it there is no legal right or power to override the mother's wishes about what may or may not be done to her even in order to protect the child, at least while the child is still inside her. Once born, however, the child has its own distinct legal rights.

people are answering the question posed in the title dietszima, you must have known it was an emotive question and would stir up strong feelings.

I am giving up on this now, it is making me shake

arrgh! Thread moving too quickly!

Another point - I don't see how using the term takes anything away from "real" rape victims (myself being one). It's hardly a "mine was more traumatic than yours..." competition?!!

Hope your OK stiflersmom, I think I'm going to step back for a while too.

Hm, I was a bit naive I suppose, I thought it was possible to discuss theoretically without people having a go at each other. I'm sorry you're upset stiflersmom, I'll ask for the thread to be deleted, OK?

I don't like the term "birth rape" because (a) it isn't nearly broad enough a term to cover the widespread humiliation that women go through in the hands of gynaecologists, obstetricians and other HCPs (b) women do consent to a lot of this humiliation because they don't have the education to know that they can refuse to be treated so badly.

don't have it deleted on my account, I don't mind it being here, I just don't want to discuss it any more myself x

S'OK, think I've got a broad enough response to this anyway, and I hate to think of other women who've been through what you have reading this and feeling worse about their experience

That's a fair point Bonsoir, the multiple prolonged traumas that some women have been through at the hands of a small minority of hcp's does seem broader than the term rape.

I remember reading an article not very long ago (two years?) about how French HCPs were now being advised that they should not slap birthing women on the thigh when they got "hysterical". Apparently it had been standard practice to teach HCPs to do this during their training

Bonsoir, I partly agree with you, and I do recognise the wider spectrum of humiliation that women suffer (as I did).

However, birth rape is used to describe a specific event where a doctor/midwife penetrates a woman with an instrument/hands etc without consent. It's different to the wider "abuse" of women in labour IMO

A LOT different.

I think there is so much humiliating treatment of women in gynaecological situations that I am not sure that I would isolate "birth rape" with your definition as particularly bad, actually.

First time round I had the kind of labour and birth friends and family urged me to sue the hospital for, but I still think it a bloody hideous term to use.

Rape is about gaining power and control.

Birth is about getting a baby born.

As shoddy as some practices can be in a labour ward, they are usually down to under-staffing / under-funding / pressure to empty beds / laziness etc., not to humiliate in order to gain control.

I understand some people feel assaulted, but to me it was more like being beaten up, not raped, which is a very different thing. I felt broken physically and mentally for months, but not debased in this way, more like I'd been hit by a bus.

I understand the need to make sense of birth trauma that could have been avoided and find a term for it, but this is just the kind of sensationalist catchphrase that makes people roll their eyes at feminism.

Agree with bonsoir and everyone who says it's assault, not rape. I had a midwife perform a sweep without even informing me first, let alone gaining my consent. Would be appalled if anyone claimed I was a victim of rape - I was assaulted. That is what the law says and I think it's right. (Medical procedures can only be carried out without consent in a very few specified situations such as unconsciousness, or with a court order.)