Re-usable Nappies - Want to be greener but help needed to get going

[Wills]

I've always wanted to be a little greener, unfortunately though with dd she was in disposables all the way. With only 5 weeks to go I'd really like to get myself kitted out to use re-usable but I'm completely lost as to where to start. Ideally I would like to find a company that clean them for me as I'm "not good" with pooh at the best of times hence why I failed first time round. I have a number of questions but would be grateful for any advice.

1. My dm is adament that disposable allow the baby's bottom to "breath" better thus preventing nappy rash. She's full of doom and gloom that if I use cloth nappies I will constantly be fighting the dreaded nappy rash. True/False.
2. There are sooo many different types and they are rather expensive - what in everyone's experience where best?
3. How do you go about finding a company to do the cleaning for you? Are they dependable? Do they supply the nappies or do you have to buy an initial load? (images of sewing names tags into nappies comes to mind).
4. If you are using a company to do the cleaning did you ever have qualms about using a piece of cloth that other babies could have poohed on?
5. Are cloth nappies any good for b/f babies? With dd her pooh was shooting out the ends and I get the impression that cloth nappies are far looser than dipsoable.
6. If you do clean your own - how the heck do you cope with that on top of everything else

Would very much like to hear from people who are using re-usable nappies to hear their experiences.

Hi,I`m new to mumsnet and was hoping for a bit of advuse on terry nappies for my newborn baby boy.I am keen to persevere but must admit to struggling.It is the bulk that i find the worst problem.He is 3 weeks old and now nearly 8ils.I am folding the nappy in a newborn style (with the padding in the middle ), but find it difficult to get the pin through !! Also my poor babe is all nappy and looks most uncomfortable.I am using motherease wraps which I find lovely.Has anyone used just muslin cloth in place of a terry while they are so tiny ? I dont really want to buy more reusables as I now have lots of Terries and this is my 3rd and probably last baby.Finally my friend gave me 1 mothercare shaped terry type nappy and it is just perfect.I think Mothercare have discontinued these,so is there anywhere i could maybe buy some secondhand while he is so teeny.ANY advise on Terry nappies and how to fit them would be most appreciated.
Thanks

Mooshy - have you come across "nappi nippas"? John Lewis sell them and they are FAB! It's a "Y" shaped clip with little teeth that grips into the terry fabric. It never comes undone (or hasn't yet on a wriggly, crawly ds (10mths). You can get them in packs of 3 for about £3/£4.
The Nappy Lady has instructions on how to use them here .

Mooshy, I have heard of people using just muslin with tiny babies, but no actual experience of it.

It won't last long anyway, they grow up so quickly and while washables are always bigger than disposables, but they grow into them more.

You could try the UKP nappy forum for the mothercare nappies (the url is below). I did have some, but I think I sold them. If I do still have them they are under ds's bed, so I will have a look in the morning for you

Hi Mooshy, welcome to Mumsnet! I used muslin squares when dd was little (in fact, she's now about 8mo and I still use them sometimes when I know she's not going to be in them for too long), and it works very well. The squares were too big for her to start with, so I used to fold the edges down slightly to make a smaller square. I didn't get started properly until she was about 10 weeks old though.

I'd second the nappy nippas too - they're great! I find them much easier to use than pins. The only problem I've had with them is that they wouldn't grip some old terry nappies that I had from when I was a baby myself.

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dadslib I was swearing at you, but at your comments, which may be a "different point of view", but which smack of propaganda put around by the manufacturers of disposable nappies.

Disposables do smell when wet

Sangenic bins are made of what? Plastic and use what? plastic to wrap each nappy individually, which then goes into where? Landfill.

Washing at 60 does get rid of bacteria,actually. Nappy laundering companies launder to hospital standards at 95 degrees I think. Anyway nappies do not have to be sterile. No-ones backside is sterile, after all. Disposable nappies are commonly left in place much longer than cloth ones, so any bacteria that have accumulated will be more likely to breed there.

OOps, must preview

Dads lib I was NOT swearing at you!

And just because British factories make disposable nappies, it does not mean that we should keep using them in order to keep their employees in a job!

Should we all start smoking to keep those poor tobacco workers employed?

Agree totally with Tissy on the hygiene front. There is no need actually for nappies to be totally sterile. Actually I very much doubt that disposables are "sterile" but it wouldn't matter whether they were or not. Bit like the arguement that making our homes too clean is leading to more asthma etc. Modern washing machines get rid of most "dirt" even at 40 degrees - there is certainly no need to boil wash. Nappy washing companies use hospital standards but this is probably as much to make mums feel more comfortable than from necessity.

Also is it really hygienic to put dispoable nappies full of poo into landfill sites where they are munched by aniimals etc. When you use washable nappies the poo goes where its meant to - down the loo. Far more hygienic.

And yes bins with disposable nappies really honk.

I can understand dadslibs view about letting overnments off the hook but we all have responsiblity for all isssues affecting the environment. I am trying to apply greener principles to all aspects of my life from money, shopping, recycling, nappies etc etc. There are so many things we can do although I certainyl don't feel that everyone should feel pressured to do everything, but if we all did a bit it would help. And taking action is sending out a message to our govts - not letting them off the hook. Surely you are not arguing that we should use disposables just to get at the govt. Can't see the login in this!

But at the end of the day Will started this thread for advice about which washable nappies etc to try - not for a debate about whether we should be using them or not. Everyone can go away and read the literature on it and form their own opinions. There are loads of reasons for wanting to use cloth and I'm happy to help anyone whatever their motivation.

Nice point Tissy

Just to report back briefly that I had a SEVENTEEN page e-mail full of recommendations, tips and no-obligation advice on which sort of cloth nappies to choose from the Nappy Lady yesterday. I'd really recommend their advice service for people wanting some more info about all aspects of cloth nappies (and who, like me, don't have friends nearby using them already).

I've read all the environmental issues for and against, looking at the big picture etc. Call me narrow minded, living in my own little world but I just like my DS2's cloth nappies, I like the fact that we have all we need in the house in the way of nappies, the poo goes down the toilet then they are washed and used again, I like the fact that my bin does not smell of rotting poo, I like the way DS2's bum looks in cloth and the choice available, I like the fact that we have never had a cloth nappy leak, I like the fact that he does not have nasty chemicals next to his bum 24/7 and very sadly I like seeing the nappies blowing on the line. I also recycle glass and would like a compost bin and if that is letting big business and the government off the hook then I am sorry as this is the way I like to lead my life and I hope that some of this will pass down to my kids, I am sick of this throwaway society.

Dadslib,
Re Waste Reduction: if you read the WEN study they go into detail about the practicalities of recycling the components of disp. nappies. It is possible, but very impractical. Cloth is a better choice for waste minimisation. Landfill space is a big problem in this country, and incineration the only other viable option. But incinerating plastics releases nasty pollutants. Long-used cloth is a much better option.

I don't think cloth nappies are "the" most green thing we can be doing, but every little bit helps, no? What ever happened to "Think globally, Act Locally."?

I also doubt WEN is 100% unbiased, but WEN's main mandate is to come up with environmentally best answers, not to produce profits for their shareholders. The opposite holds true for the big disp. manufacturers. WEN's only influencing bias is some WAHMs making nappies probably also support WEN. But most WEN supporters are not nappy makers!

I can't accept that green actions by individuals lets corporations off the hook, (although it probably lets other individuals off the hook). The govt. keeps separate accounts of company "greenness" versus domestic or govt. "greenness". Anyway, if we all switched en masse to using cloth, Pampers would start making real cloth nappies, too. They aren't stupid.

As for helping economies... a large proportion of cloth nappies are made by WAHMs. This means the nappy price goes straight to relatively low earners, who in turn tend to return a large proportion of their income straight back to the economy. A shareholder in Pampers, for instance, would be more likely to put extra profits into property or more shares; those investments promote the economy less than buying tangible goods (like clothes & food for your family). Just as taxcuts aimed at the poorest communities in society tend to do the most to encourage economic growth (unless you believe in "trickle down" or "supply-side" economics, which never seem to have caught on this country, mercifully). When you give the poor more income, they go out & spend it on things. Give the rich more income, they save it up for a rainy day. So, buying from your local nappy maker does more good to the economy as a whole, esp. the economy to the WAHM, than buying disps (or anything, really) from a large & profitable corporation.

Oops, make that "especialy the economy local to the WAHM" on the last line.

dadslib, your post made me laugh.

Haven't got time to "make our government wipe out third work (sic) debt" today but I'll try and get round to it after I've hung the nappies out on the line to dry.

Also to use your argument, I very much doubt that a poster called 'dadslib' is totally unbiased in their approach to the Womens Enviromental Network.

Dadslib said: "If individuals are seen to be green, governments can happily do nothing whilst the planet fries and the resources are used up."

Paul Burstow MP "did something" and put forward an Early Day motion in Parliament supporting Real Nappy Week. It was signed by 54 members of parliament from all parties.
"That this House notes that disposable nappies give rise to over a million tonnes of household waste every year, costing £40 million; recognises the benefits of local authority partnerships and promotions which can prevent waste; supports Real Nappy Week, 23-29 April, which aims to give parents a fair choice of modern washable nappies and nappy laundries; and calls upon the Department of Health to ensure that a fair choice is available in maternity wards and through health professionals and to consider adopting a real nappy policy.'

The following county and regional councils are also"doing something" about the waste caused by disposable nappies:
Local authority support for real nappies

But environmental issues aside, if I was given a lifetime's supply of disposable nappies for free and told they were wholly biodegradable, safe to use on my son's skin and would never cause nappy rash/asthma/infertility, I still wouldn't use them.
My cotton nappies perform so much better than any other disposable brand and I have tried all the major ones plus most shop brands. They absorb everything and have NEVER leaked, unlike every other nappy I have tried.

IMO mums have been fobbed off with an expensive and poor quality product under the guise of convenience. If dadslib is looking for a conspiracy theory, I would look closer at the disposable nappy industry.

Yes, thats true bobsmum! I came to washables in desperation after all the major brands of disposables helpfully guided dd2's poo up her back every time. I have never had a single leak since she has worn washables - in fact dreading my holiday next week as I have promised not to take the washables...

dadslib... i dare you to go to ukp and mention your views on cloth naps on the cloth nappy forum... !!

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Washable cloth pads for menstruation are all the rage among us eco-freaks, Dadslib.... Search for Mooncup on this site, too!

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Yes dadslib - washable sanitary products are fab actually and far more comfortable than the disposable paper variety. Just reinforces my feeling that if I find cloth more comfortable then I'm sure my baby will too.

Think its going a bit far to tell everyone their nappies leak because they are putting them on wrong or using the wrong size though. One of the reasons that cloth is meant to be better is that you have 2 lines of defence - the nappy and then the wrap. Even if the nappy fails the wrap catches it. I've had loads of disposables direct poo up the back with both my kids. I'm hoping for more success with the cloth but at least there are more options for me to try to find the nappies which work best.

I understand that while weenies pads (a dosposable product) can be composted this is not recommended for poo due to the live polio virus etc. Most conventional disposables contain too much plastic and checmicals in the gels etc to go on the garden. Same reasons they don't do well in landfill sites. However I do beleive that more pressure should be put on the big companies to invest more in greener products. If weenies can produce a degradable product (designed by a mum who was a chemist I think) then why can't huggies and pampers. But I'd still prefer to give my money to a work at home mum than a big company.

Oh and you don't need to wash nappies at 60 or 95 - 40 is fine and line-drying in the sunshine will shift any stubbon stains. In fact most wraps etc shouldn't be washed at more than 40 - for wool wraps its 30 or handwash!

Yes! I am a complete idiot and the reason I use cloth is that I was too cack-handed to put disposables on properly. Funny how I've managed to make a one-size cloth nappy fit my dd for the past eight months.

Don't be silly.

Everyone here welcomes men's views but you are going to get boring very quickly if you think we need a man around to shake us up. We manage to do that well enough ourselves thank you

Darn it - do disposables come in different sizes? Why did no one tell me? You mean I should have checked how big my baby was....what a foolish mummy. And..what?...those tab things are for fastening the nappy?....dearie me...how sheepish do I feel.

Dadslib said: "Three last points:
Nappy wrapper bins don't smell in my experience..."

Then your experience is very different to mine. I have dreaded every time I have opened a disposal hatch in a shop's baby changing room.

"Disposables don't leak if you put them on right and use the right size."

Yes they do.

"I suspect 'nasty chemicals' talked about are similar to the ones in womens sanitary products. I take it all you Clothies have all now gone back to washable sanitary knickers too?"

Yes they are, and you might be surprised how many of the ladies on here do use reusaeble products. My wife (Bobsmum) keeps talking about something called a 'mooncup'. I am intrigued...

Dadslib, you started off making some (quite rash, IMO) statements about plastic pants (sooo 1980s), biodegradeability of terries compared to disposables and so on, which have been ably contradicted by various folks on here. I can't help noticing that your line of argument has shifted subtly since your first post. Does this mean you accept you were wrong?

Final question: if you really do think terries are less biodegradeable, can you explain why? I always thought cotton was an organic, and therefore completely biodegradeable product? Plastic, and plastic coated paper, on the other hand, is not biodegradeable. The most biodegradeable thing about a disposeable nappy is the poo.

PS - Hi everyone, just thought I'd join up to weigh in on this debate ... bobsmum's hubby, in case you've not guessed