Re-usable Nappies - Want to be greener but help needed to get going

[Wills]

I've always wanted to be a little greener, unfortunately though with dd she was in disposables all the way. With only 5 weeks to go I'd really like to get myself kitted out to use re-usable but I'm completely lost as to where to start. Ideally I would like to find a company that clean them for me as I'm "not good" with pooh at the best of times hence why I failed first time round. I have a number of questions but would be grateful for any advice.

1. My dm is adament that disposable allow the baby's bottom to "breath" better thus preventing nappy rash. She's full of doom and gloom that if I use cloth nappies I will constantly be fighting the dreaded nappy rash. True/False.
2. There are sooo many different types and they are rather expensive - what in everyone's experience where best?
3. How do you go about finding a company to do the cleaning for you? Are they dependable? Do they supply the nappies or do you have to buy an initial load? (images of sewing names tags into nappies comes to mind).
4. If you are using a company to do the cleaning did you ever have qualms about using a piece of cloth that other babies could have poohed on?
5. Are cloth nappies any good for b/f babies? With dd her pooh was shooting out the ends and I get the impression that cloth nappies are far looser than dipsoable.
6. If you do clean your own - how the heck do you cope with that on top of everything else

Would very much like to hear from people who are using re-usable nappies to hear their experiences.

I used washable nappies with my little boy now 3 yrs and am now using them with my 8 month baby daughter, very successfully I would never go back to disposeables in fact I hate using them on holiday and both my children have always slept better in washables and have seemed uncomfortable in disposeables. my son never had nappy rash once and I noticed an improvement in his skin once I swapped to washables, my daughter has had it a bit but I think its more to do with their skin than the nappies used as when I was a nanny the baby was always in pampers but her nappy rash was so bad it bled dispite every effort to avoid it and every cream going to treat it! As for allowing the skin to breath it depends on the nappie chosen(twinkleontheweb.com have almost every nappy on the market). I wash my own, it takes five minutes to put them on to wash and sort the buckets and I have a tumble dryer so drying is no problem. I hope I have been of some help to those wondering and ubove all else I have saved a fortune!!!

I can't believe it doesn't save loads of money. I've spent about £130 so far but now I've got everything I need for about the next year I hope so that should be more or less it (except baby 2 is coming along earlier than expected so I have to buy a whole new set). Surely even the cheapest disps can't cost less than this? I wash them witht he normal white wash so it doesn't even cost extra on electricity.
Whatever you do, don't fall for the 'it's your choice so you can wash them' line - my dh tried that on too. TBH he still does a lot less than me but at least he knows it's a job to be shared.

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Wills I've spent about £100 on nappies and stuffalbe wraps. The wraps will last about 6 months before I need the next size but I know I can sell them on for only slightly less than I pay for them as long as I look after them and the stuffings/ terries will last right through. Most cost comparisons will not include selling on the nappies and wraps when you finish with them. They also tend to count the costs of washing as seperate when you can actually wash most of it with your normal washes and they add on things like soaking solutions which you don't actually need. Also you can save extra money with washable wipes etc which are not included in these calculations.

The costs of different systems does vary a lot though so I think the most accurate way is to choose the sort you would like, work out the cost and then compare with the brand of disposable you would go for. I never trust the other figures myself as there is too much variation in other factors.

But you could always lecture your DH on the issues of chemicals and babys bum, landfill and environment costs too.

Ooh, yes, selling them on, I had forgotten about that, I made back 50% of the purchase price this way.

Katherine, good point about the wipes - major savings there I'm sure.
Can I ask what size wraps you have that you think will get you through to 6 months? I noticed that the smallest NB stuffable (which I think is what you've gone for?) starts at 9lb which my ds didn't attain for about 2 months...

Hmmm now you've got me worried Elliott! I've got a variety of different ones. The smallest are the bear behinds and the little chicks. Both of which are gorgeous WAHMum wraps. I'm planning on getting more little chicks once I know what this one is going to be. Tehy are very small though and DD had them on her little chou chou and they fitted fine. She also had the NB stuffable on her doll and that fitted too so I'm hoping to fiddle around with the poppers. If it doesn't fit for a while (I have small babies too) then I'll have to either invest in a couple more smaller ones or alternatviely I've heard that Newborn Breast fed poo tends to be a bit leaky in stuffables and all-in-ones so I've got some ordinary terries which I'm planning to fold if there is a problem. This will improve containment and also bulk out the nappy so it should fit. Haven't used the system before though so it will be trial and error. Will report back on how I get on.

sorry Katherine! I was just curious as I have been pondering on sizes and wondering what the most economical combination of wrap sizes will be for me. I think my requirements are similar to yours (cheap and quick drying) - I've been thinking I might start with muslins/small terries and then perhaps try stuffables post-weaning. I was going to try the tots wrap (it is pretty flexible size wise) and also prowrap (cheap!) and bumpy (my fave for ds but pricey). Most WAHM stuff generally seems very pricey to me (though undeniably cute!)

With ds (20 months, not sure of his weight but he seems quite skinny) I've been using pad folded terries quite effectively but I must say my favourite for him is the MEOS (too slow drying though).
I'm looking forward to your nappy using report (and your home birth report) - can't be long now surely!!

I did very careful cost calculations, including washing powder, electricity, gas, the lot. I reckoned that my first child in cloth only saved me £20-£50 (final total) from birth to potty. That also includes fact that I used some (very infrequently, but some) disps, and I find I can satisfactory disps for 10p each. Also, the nursery had too many leaks in cloth, so we had to use disps there for about 14 months (6/wk). So for me the real savings have come with having 2nd child in cloth.

Back of envelope: 4 disps/day for 2.5 years, at 10p each = 3650 nappies, or £365. I think my cloth habit added up to about £320. That's mostly terries, but some fitted, some All-In-Ones and good quality (Motherease)wraps. Mostly bought 2nd hand, too.

Bumpy wraps are very adjustable, and the small size lasted my daughter at least 6 months, although she is quite thin. Miranda at Twinkle Twinkle says that you can skip a size and go from small to large, missing out medium. Having been given some mediums, I didn't, but I think it would have been feasible.

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Which disposables are produced in the UK?

Also terry might take longer to biodegrade (? does it?) but the point is that it rarely ends up in landfill sites as they have lots of uses and usually go through a few children before they end up as dusters, bibs etc.

If you don't feel that washables are green enough, there are lots of other reasons to choose washables, cost being just one, so hopefully Wills you won't be swayed.

"Disposables bio-degrade faster than terry nappies in landfill sites"

um - since when???? i would be REALLY interested to know the research that has proven this!

"Disposable nappies don't require washing and drying which uses up energy, gas/electric, water etc"

but they DO require manufacturing - each and every one - which also uses up energy, gas/electric, water etc

"Terry nappies are often produced in '3rd world' countries where conditions are not very 'green' at all"

Tota Bots are made in Scotland - Motherease are (if I recall) made in Canada. But even then, if they were not very "greenly" manufactuerd I would far prefer to have 20 reusable nappies whose manufacture impacted the environment than 4500 disposables. I think it is the Pampers website that claims that there is not much difference in the manufacturing implications of a single reusable and a single disposable - you can bet you boots that if the maufacture for disposables was greener then they would have said so!

"Terry nappies are not used on their own anyway, liners and plastic pants are used too, all having to be produced and disposed of."

True to an extent - although the environmental impact of a single thickness liner (little more than a tissue) cannot be much. Yes you need something over the nappy - hardly anyone uses plastic anymore, but if you did then you still don't need more than 3 pairs of plastic pants. Not a lot of impact there - just compare it to the wrapping on the bags of nappies you buy - that will add up to far more plastic I am sure. Also, a lot of people use reusable liners and as I say most people use fabric overpants/wraps now too.

In your not bvery well thought out objects to "real nappies" you seem to have forgotten the basic tenants of sustainable living. "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle". Washable nappies reduce the amount of manufacture and waste. They are clearly reusable. If you sell them on or buy second hand then you are recylcling too. Disposable nappies do none of these things. They are teaching our children that we live in a disposable society - once something has been used it should be discarded, with no thoughts as to the impact on tomorrow.

Really should preview to proof read before I post. Sorry for all the typos!

Dadslib.. you realise you have raised the hackles of the clothie brigade, now, don't you??? I have to accept the cost arguments because I can see I haven't saved much for first child by using cloth... but env'ly I can't see how anybody can try & defend disps. Even allowing for the high pesticide use on cotton (although hemp & organic cotton nappies are available, too!), cloth still seems a better choice to me. I was given terries & bought others very cheaply 2nd hand. But if I was buying new, I'd try to go for hemp due to the environmental friendliness of it.

There is an excellent 1996 study funded by the Women's Environmental Network , showing how much more energy/env. resources disps used.

I reproduce the WEN table of impacts here, but I can't format it prettily. Basically, disps. use 2.3 to 90 times as much resources as cloth.

Impact per infant, per year Cloth, Disposable, Factor of difference

Energy 2532 MJ 8900 MJ 3.5 x
Waste water 12.4 m3 28 m3 2.3 x
Raw materials: non-regenerable 25 kg 208 kg 8.3 x
Raw materials: renewable 4 kg 361 kg 90 x
Domestic solid waste 4 kg 240 kg 60 x
Land for raw materials* 1,150-6,800 ha 29,500-32,300 ha 4 to 30 x

*annually, for German infant population

Hey - if we all want to save as much money as possible and be as green as possible, maybe we should all try elimination communication . Any takers???

Oh no! I just had a tirade about it on the UKP debating forum (and NO, I am not a big frequenter of the debating forum on UKP). For some reason ECT really gets up my nose.

Elliott - one of the reasons I chose stuffables was that if I stuff them with terries or with flannels then both these things will have a use afterwards as general mops etc. Also the stuffable wraps do not actually have to be stuffed - you can use them as wraps. That might sound like it defeats the object but for me it means keeping my options open - If they leak as stuffables I at first I can use them as ordinary wraps then stuff them a bit later. I agree that some WAH mum nappies seem pricy but because they are unique they hold their value really well too - and they are just soooooo. cute.

As to the issue of disposables being greener! Pardon. Did I read that correctly?
Since when has cotton taken longer to degrade than plastic?
Every disposable nappy uses a cup of crude oil in its production, never mind the electricity and other chemicals involved.
Very few disposables use reclaimed materials. Not even for the packaging.
Some terries might be produced in 3rd world countries. I'm sure cheap disposables are too. But there are plenty of sources of UK made terries or terries made by fair trade co-ops. Cotton can also be produced organically.Organic disposables? I think not.
Liners and pants can also be made from "greener fabrics" and used many many times. A disposable is used once at the most.
I can't see how anyone can argue that disposables are green in any sense. Some washable nappies are greener than others but at the end of the day a product which can be used again and again and again and then passed on to someone else (there are even charities which take old ones now) will always be more sustainable than something which is designed to be thrown away.

I think dadslib is a troll sponsored by P***s

What a load of bs

well said oakmaiden and zebra.

Even if disps were greener and cheaper than cloth nappies, I wouldn't want that combination of paper, plastic and highly absorbent polyacrylic gel anywhere near my baby's bum. The smell of disps when wet is far worse than the smell of a dirty cloth nappy, and the smell of a wheely bin full of disps on a summer's day before the bin men have come is indescribable.

and Katherine

has anyone tired the nature boy girl nappies? disposible, but bio-degradable (i think)

but can anyone help me, have been using disposibles on my 10month old daughter but she is huge!!! (28lb). the extra large she is getting too big for. do washables come up in bigger sizes? i need something as she is too young for potty training just yet

Misdee, I seem to be following you tonight.
Sandys Large go to 35lb and they then do a Toddle Ease for over this weight.
Tots Bots Size 2 18-4-lbs, then size 3 for over that
Fuzzibunz Large 22-35lbs.
Or there ias the motherease one size which is for 8-35lb.
There are all the nappies that the company I use do. The Bottom Line in Lichfield Bottom Line
They also do Moltex disposables Maxi 17-39lb and Junior 26-55lb
Hope this helps

Sorry Tots Bots size 2 should read 18-40lbs.
And the link works

altho dd is in the weight range for the junior and extra large nappies, because she is chunky they just dont fit, and aslo as the packs are smaller the larger the nappies get (does that make sense) i'm spending a fortune on nappies atm. so hopefully washables will work for us. just wish i could find a shop in hertfordshire that could help and i could go to, and maybe see what ones will work well for us.

misdee - teamlollipop are a nappy seller with agents who wll come to your house and demonstrate various types of washable nappies (no obligation obviously!). They have a rep in Hertfordshire. Team Lollipop