Nursery unprofessional?

[Two2byTwo2]

A bit long winded so apologies in advance, I want to know if I am being precious or if in fact I have a point and also what I should do about it?

Daughter turned 3 late last year. She has been attending a private nursery since March last year for a few days as to not overwhelm and get her mixing with other children. With the view to increase her days when she gets 30hr funding.

Initially all the staff were great, couldn't do enough for us and were an absolute delight, they loved our daughter and it was going well.
Our daughter admittedly can be a handful, she is very tom boyish and boisterous. She has a lot of male family so she can hold her own. She went through a phase of biting, but we managed to head it off after a couple of weeks. However she has taken to scratching! This happens mainly at nursery and she can hurt other children (we cut her nails every other day). She does it at home on occasion but not often.
The nursery think she could be SEN / Autistic etc. We do not think she is at all, she's affectionate with most and she does recognise when people are upset. She often over loves if that is a thing, cuddles other children and doesn't listen if asked not to.

She can be stubborn, have tantrums, scream and imagine disruptive to the other children (is this not standard 2yr old tantrums?). Sometimes she does get overwhelmed with the childrens games/noises and can lose it a bit so she does require some time out, often with an adult on a 121 basis.

We've worked together with the nursery and come up with plans to replicate how they manage her so we are being consistent at home and nursery. We have set up reward charts at nursery and she enjoys that, it does help.

We know she is no angel but they've asked to refer her for SEN/Autism assessments which we've said no to as she is far too young to assess, they recommend about 6yrs for Autism.
I have asked to up her days to use the 30hr funding I enquired in October just after her 3rd birthday and said happy to wait for space as in no rush. However they have come back and said no they can't and made several excuses.
We are actually really quite upset at this as she's done so well, been there almost a year and formed bonds with the staff and children alike.
I feel that as they have made this diagnosis that she's SEN and claiming that it is unfair to others because of her additional needs when in fact I think it is that they dislike her and cannot cope with her behaviour? In my opinion this is poor on the part of the nursery that they're not willing to continue to support, and a shame for our daughter that we may have to start all over again.
Like I said at the beginning a long post and am I being precious?

Yes and the other issue will be that your child will need a lot of supervision which then effects the ratios. There's a child like this at my child's nursery and someone has to always be with them which basically means they're a teacher down which annoys me as I pay a premium for that place as they have higher ratios than the norm.

@Saxendi it was probably a misworded title to be honest, and it was me trying to think of something whilst trying not to forget points that I wanted to add in for context and not drip feed.

@staybyyou Agree nothing to lose. Thank you.

I’ve actually been the teacher on the other end of this. We strongly feel that that there is some SEND need with a child and that this may possibly be ASD. The parents do not think this at all and are adamant that his behaviour is atypical for a 3 year old. It is not. He has some similar behaviours as your child and I’m not diagnosing your daughter because I’ve never met her but it is incredibly frustrating when you want to support a child, knowing they have need when you’re blocked by the parents. This child in question needs very close supervision or other children are hurt. We do not have the capacity to do this. They haven’t taken into account my 15 years worth of experience and the 100s (yes I mean 100s, I’ve done the maths) of three year olds I’ve looked after. I know what a typical three year old behaves like. Nursery staff will recognise and know the signs of a child who has additional need.
Also who recommends 6 for ASD? I have a little boy my class who got his diagnosis and EHCP at 3. He would be absolutely lost and so would we without this because he needs 1:1. He also shows an incredible amount of affection - so thats not a sign that your child is not.

@NewName24 We were told that it is difficult to diagnose until they were at least 6yrs old and then from the reading that we have both done it seems to agree with that thought process.

My feeling that the nursery have already given this diagnosis to our daughter despite not having it confirmed.

We are absolutely onboard with they have the skills and knowledge but we did not outright say no - we did discuss with her HV at an appointment that we had made after the nursery had suggested this. When we went back and said what we thought, we were not pushed or advised that it was worth doing anyway. So it was left. I appreciate no spare staff (nowhere does these days) and it is getting tougher for nurseries. We agree we are going to go ahead with the assessment as nothing to lose and it has been great reading the feedback and appreciate the time everyone is taking.

id be inclined to accept the referral but I would absolutely challenge the refusal for additional hours. It sounds like discrimination to me. There was a similar situation locally to me where a nursery was sued for discrimination for removing a child with autism. They were successful in the action against the nursery

Work with them and listen to what they are advising, I don't think there is any harm in doing an assessment. It is often assumed that children who have autism are not affectionate but it's not always the case. The nursery deal with children everyday and then know what is typical of a child of that age, and if your child does need additional support then it's better to get early intervention. I'm not saying that's the case , but I wouldn't dismiss what they are saying.

@JustAGirlScotland Thank you for this response as this was also something that my partner and I discussed, they have agree to take on a lot of new full time funded from April so we also think this has also impacted the decision.

Also appreciate the other parents paying to keep their children safe, I must say this is not a daily occurrence, like I said we can go weeks with nothing then a spate of scratching.

We also did wonder if they were recommending this referral so they could get additional funding but that was the cynical part of us.....

@MyCatIsPlotting Yes good point - forgot about the ADHD too! It does appear that from reading all the feedback and comments that it can be diagnosed super early!
We also agree we will as there is nothing to lose and the waiting list is ridiculous with the NHS so we will advise the nursery Friday when she is next there. Oh she is already 'labelled' several names....and some that I imagine the nursery will not be able to repeat!
Good luck with your diagnosis for your son. Thank you for taking the time to comment.

That child had autism. If the child hasn't been diagnosed with autism because the parent refuses to let them be assessed they're not discriminating against a child with autism.

I probably agree with this to an extent. There will be children with more severe symptoms who will be diagnosed under the age of 3. However for most I suspect they get diagnosed when they start primary school, and given waiting lists can be long, then they may be 5 or 6 by the time they are diagnosed. My son has just been referred to speech and language for his sensory seeking behaviour (which can be a trait of autism I am told) but this wasn't picked up at nursery. Nursery had no concerns, but the senco at his school has picked up on it. He's 4 and i don't think he has autism but I'm being supportive of what the school are telling me and I've agreed for him to be referred.

@Jobsharenightmare she does choose who she is affectionate with mind, she can be particular but she does not just demand that, she does wait if you ask her to.
Yes I agree, they are trying to cover all aspects and I am not sure if they can access anything else in the interim? We are working with them so much to try to help but not sure if they are telling us everything?

Yes, but they have indicated they suspect the child has autism. If that forms part of the reasoning to remove / reduce the child's hours then that is quite clearly a problem. Further, you don't have to have a formal diagnosis to have protection under the equalities act

@FVFrog thank you, we have agreed after all the comments, support and recommendations that we are going ahead, we have nothing to lose and getting on the waiting list is a start, if she is not then we have investigated and ruled it out. Sorry it took until she was almost 18 and your struggle all that time!

@Marblessolveeverything not sure, we are going to ask for a meeting with the nursery on Friday and take it from there.

@splothersdog It is great coming on here and getting facts, so absolutely grateful to all.

Full credit to @Two2byTwo2 for replying to so many people, and to taking on board what everyone has said.
You don't see much of that on MN

Great post by @babybythesea at the top of P3

@babybythesea absolutely this and yes it is a great comparison I agree! We did however as mentioned in replies to other posters did discuss with her Health visitor, who said she did not present any traits that would indicate Autism, so we did not do it blindly, we did seek support and went back to the nursery to advise them of this, however they did not then push and said we recommend it regardless.

We totally want her to get all the support she can to navigate life it is going to be difficult enough as it is, so any help or guidance would be gratefully accepted.

That isn't true at all.
I'm autistic and so are three of my children.
We're all very affectionate.

Iv seen you have already acknowledged this but children with Autism can and do show affection and give eye contact and can listen

Your ‘idea’ of Autism is very out of date

Your child sounds like she needs extra support and maybe 1:1 due to her hurting other children
The nursery more than likely can not get enough staff for this but if she is correctly diagnosed with SEN, they may be able to get additional support for
Which benefits her and other children

OP, whatever the future path is for you and your lovely daughter she is very fortunate to have such a supportive and invested mum. If she is diagnosed as autistic and she may not be, this will have a huge beneficial effect on her outcomes.

@jannier agree and this has been highlighted by other posters that age has no meaning for Autism referrals. On occasions she gets overwhelmed in situations when they are all in the same area, for a party when it is loud and screamy. They prefer to take her to a quiet space and they can actually leave her, then she would come back of her own accord, the requirement for this is not regular (as far as we are aware they choose to stay with her).

She does well in crowded / noisy places when she is with us and we have never had to take her to quieter situations, she loves a family party and is usually in the middle of it with all of her cousins and friends.

@jannier Yes we are working with them. If you read many of the other posts that I have responded to we have not just outright denied this request, we engaged with her health visitor prior to this. Our friends child has other issues that are not relevant for this thread.

@Bluebelz we have agreed and will be engaging with the nursery on Friday to get this moved for a referral. It really is great coming on here to get perspective.

I also think there is an element of this too as they have a lot of funded 2 and 3 yr olds due in April term that are more than likely going in at full time (preferred). We have worked with them constantly throughout and regardless of receptive to their request, we did not just ignore, we did engage with HV and they said she was not presenting anything in their opinion that would suggest autism, so we took her advise as someone who knows our daughter from birth.

It has done her really well, and really bought her out of herself, we are looking at other options as we quite like the idea of childminder being home from home as my wife has done lots with her and she does enjoy that aspect, but also looks forward to the nursery days and runs in without a care in the world.

@Mysterian That is the blooming word I should have used instead of unprofessional! Discriminating!! Honestly! Two2byTwo2! Thank you Mysterian!

We did wonder, just too much effort for little monetary return and over the last few weeks, we really have felt a switch in behaviours of the staff.
That is good that they do that regardless of cost, the child is and should be priority.

Absolutely they do know their stuff as that is their job, and we will be going back in Friday to discuss and get it moved on.