Nursery unprofessional?

[Two2byTwo2]

A bit long winded so apologies in advance, I want to know if I am being precious or if in fact I have a point and also what I should do about it?

Daughter turned 3 late last year. She has been attending a private nursery since March last year for a few days as to not overwhelm and get her mixing with other children. With the view to increase her days when she gets 30hr funding.

Initially all the staff were great, couldn't do enough for us and were an absolute delight, they loved our daughter and it was going well.
Our daughter admittedly can be a handful, she is very tom boyish and boisterous. She has a lot of male family so she can hold her own. She went through a phase of biting, but we managed to head it off after a couple of weeks. However she has taken to scratching! This happens mainly at nursery and she can hurt other children (we cut her nails every other day). She does it at home on occasion but not often.
The nursery think she could be SEN / Autistic etc. We do not think she is at all, she's affectionate with most and she does recognise when people are upset. She often over loves if that is a thing, cuddles other children and doesn't listen if asked not to.

She can be stubborn, have tantrums, scream and imagine disruptive to the other children (is this not standard 2yr old tantrums?). Sometimes she does get overwhelmed with the childrens games/noises and can lose it a bit so she does require some time out, often with an adult on a 121 basis.

We've worked together with the nursery and come up with plans to replicate how they manage her so we are being consistent at home and nursery. We have set up reward charts at nursery and she enjoys that, it does help.

We know she is no angel but they've asked to refer her for SEN/Autism assessments which we've said no to as she is far too young to assess, they recommend about 6yrs for Autism.
I have asked to up her days to use the 30hr funding I enquired in October just after her 3rd birthday and said happy to wait for space as in no rush. However they have come back and said no they can't and made several excuses.
We are actually really quite upset at this as she's done so well, been there almost a year and formed bonds with the staff and children alike.
I feel that as they have made this diagnosis that she's SEN and claiming that it is unfair to others because of her additional needs when in fact I think it is that they dislike her and cannot cope with her behaviour? In my opinion this is poor on the part of the nursery that they're not willing to continue to support, and a shame for our daughter that we may have to start all over again.
Like I said at the beginning a long post and am I being precious?

Compare it to being short sighted.

Nursery have said my child might need glasses. I don’t want them labelled as short sighted. I don’t think they need them as they manage fine at home. So I’ve said no to taking them to the opticians.
You wouldn’t do it, would you? You’d think ‘I’ll get that checked and then make sure, if my child needs anything to help them function or achieve (like glasses) that they have it.’

Essentially if you agree to an assessment, you are doing the equivalent of a trip to the optician! Just with different implications. If there’s no ASD, there will be no diagnosis. However if there is, that comes with loads of positives.

An understanding from others (eg teachers) of why she might behave in certain ways in certain situations, without automatically being labelled as naughty.

Linked to that, a shorthand way of saying to others, if you need or choose to, (eg Brownie leaders as a random example) that she might need watching if this or that happens, or she might need help with x, y or z.

Thinking way ahead, the option to apply for access arrangements or similar so she can properly show what she’s capable of in exams.

A means to understand herself when she reacts differently to others - don’t underestimate the impact this can have on self esteem.

The chance to develop and practice techniques to help herself to cope in particular situations.

Depending on how it affects her, the possibility of funding to access whatever support is required, so she can properly develop her potential.

If she is autistic not diagnosing her won’t change it. It’ll just deny her the support and understanding she would otherwise be entitled to.

My comment that they have made this diagnosis that she is SEN

It’s not a diagnosis. They are saying that she needs something ‘additional to and different from’ what is ordinarily available as part of their offer, so she meets the criteria for having SEND. A paediatrician may (or may not) diagnose.

@Anotherdayanotherdollar from the updates we get this is not a regular occurrence it can be when they have parties and are all in the one room, it can get rather full and noisy. I would say that happens once per month maybe? I would understand if this was each time she attended, but it really is not. Unless they are not telling us the full story.

@deeprealisation I agree, thank you.

You absolutely can assess at two....and the sooner done the better. You say your child gets overwhelmed and needs 1to 1 to calm down .....how can a nursery fund this if you're denying the source of additional funding? Most children do not need extended 1 to 1 for calming down.
If the nursery feel your not willing to work with them and children are getting injured and having staff diverted it's going to impact the care to others.
They have vast experience of children with all types of needs.

@wineandcheeseplease

Honestly not in denial, just misinformed, hence coming to mumsnet for some guidance.
I can assure you a 3 year old does have terrible 3's not two's! Many people that I speak to have said they thought it stopped once they were 3 and they still hadn't.

They can do. There's also a reason why girls often go undiagnosed

@Snowdropsareontheirway

We do want that for her, however both of us were under the impression she was too young, thankful for Mumsnet for provided some feedback hence coming here to ask.

@HeyDiggity Thank you, totally agree.

But your not are you? How can you be working with them and follow their advice but say no to an assessment? Your friends kid may also have issues and parents in denial.

@sprigatito I think I worded the subject wrong, but could not think of another word at the time as was trying to get so much down on here, without forgetting bits of info as to not drip feed.

Thank you, appreciate your feedback and I agree wholeheartedly.

At the end of the day, scratching and getting overwhelmed at 3 years old isn’t that abnormal. It could be nursery are right about sen and I would absolutely follow up on that because I’m sure early intervention is key.

However it could also be nursery are over subscribed, maxing out the ratios and just can’t be bothered dealing with your disruptive child anymore or the inevitable complaints from other parents. Especially if you’ve not been that receptive to getting an assessment.

Nursery is very intense and not suited to all children. Could a childminder be better for you, where your child could be in a smaller group while you investigate possibility of sen?

A health visitor does not know your child and does not work with them they listen to you and do a couple of tests but they should listen to the nursery too and read their two year review as well as ask for nursery input.

@sprigatito yeah definitely outdated and it is great coming on here for peoples experiences, it really does put everything into perspective. It is the stereotypical views that sadly I have come across when you google it to death, and you get so many variances. Thank you again for your input.

@Urgenthelplease yep totally agree, I know there are a few children in the nursery that require additional support. We were not defensive, we were just unsure, we said we would do everything to support and took her to the HV to review and discuss, on her guidance we said not at this stage as difficult to diagnose but she was not presenting anything in her professional opinion that would highlight Autism so was not doing it to cause any issues, we genuinely thought we had sough the support.

@AngelsandAliens Wow I knew they were long but did not realise 27 months long! A previous poster did say that perception of Autism is still a little behind but it has come on leaps and bounds. Absolutely good point she will be in school at that stage so best to go ahead. Hopefully you are some way down the list now and can get the diagnosis soon.

Some settings do 'manage children out'. If a child needs one to one care they're losing money on them. If there's no SEN concern because the parents say no it's not discriminating against anybody (In the nursery's view). I've seen it done often. Frequently it's the lie that they can only take a child that's toilet trained.

My current nursery based in a private school do what's right for the child and ignore any extra costs. It's one of the reasons I've been there so long.

And you can tell very early. One of the last children it was obvious from the baby room there was an issue. It shouldn't be a surprise that a dozen qualified people with years experience of hundreds of children know a thing or two.

Trust the professionals? Just an idea…

@PingPongPiddlyPong love your name it made me smile saying it.

Yes we are trying to teach boundaries etc, but if she wants to cuddle them she does regardless.

Oh, and I hope it all goes well.

Sorry, she sounds like a nightmare for the teachers and the children. You sound a bit like you're also brushing off her terrible behaviour with words like "boisterous". I do however understand that you don't want her to be labelled or categorised and stereotyped (because it does seem everyone is quick to go to that), so I think all you can do is work on improving her behaviour and she should be old enough to understand now.

I certainly wouldn't be happy as a parent if my child was getting bitten and scratched at nursery and you were preventing her getting extra support which would go some way in safeguarding the other children.

@pinkunicorns54 Yes I agree and then they could arrange 121 if funding allowed. Oh I do not imagine for a second it is a quick fix - is anything these days medically?

@PillowRest Wow! 22 months! A PP said 27 month waiting list currently.....so best to get her on it sooner rather than later!
Oh that is good that she is getting all of that support. How do you manage it in home life?

@SeriouslyStressed I agree they are the best judge and must see loads, but we thought we were doing what was best, as we had engaged with her HV after the nursery had suggested it Her HV did not think that she presented anything that would make her think she was autistic. Honestly not hard to accept we just want to get her the support she needs, but we just did not think it was needed. I am so grateful to all on here that have taken the time to comment and provide feedback and support. Really good sounding board.