Nursery unprofessional?

[Two2byTwo2]

A bit long winded so apologies in advance, I want to know if I am being precious or if in fact I have a point and also what I should do about it?

Daughter turned 3 late last year. She has been attending a private nursery since March last year for a few days as to not overwhelm and get her mixing with other children. With the view to increase her days when she gets 30hr funding.

Initially all the staff were great, couldn't do enough for us and were an absolute delight, they loved our daughter and it was going well.
Our daughter admittedly can be a handful, she is very tom boyish and boisterous. She has a lot of male family so she can hold her own. She went through a phase of biting, but we managed to head it off after a couple of weeks. However she has taken to scratching! This happens mainly at nursery and she can hurt other children (we cut her nails every other day). She does it at home on occasion but not often.
The nursery think she could be SEN / Autistic etc. We do not think she is at all, she's affectionate with most and she does recognise when people are upset. She often over loves if that is a thing, cuddles other children and doesn't listen if asked not to.

She can be stubborn, have tantrums, scream and imagine disruptive to the other children (is this not standard 2yr old tantrums?). Sometimes she does get overwhelmed with the childrens games/noises and can lose it a bit so she does require some time out, often with an adult on a 121 basis.

We've worked together with the nursery and come up with plans to replicate how they manage her so we are being consistent at home and nursery. We have set up reward charts at nursery and she enjoys that, it does help.

We know she is no angel but they've asked to refer her for SEN/Autism assessments which we've said no to as she is far too young to assess, they recommend about 6yrs for Autism.
I have asked to up her days to use the 30hr funding I enquired in October just after her 3rd birthday and said happy to wait for space as in no rush. However they have come back and said no they can't and made several excuses.
We are actually really quite upset at this as she's done so well, been there almost a year and formed bonds with the staff and children alike.
I feel that as they have made this diagnosis that she's SEN and claiming that it is unfair to others because of her additional needs when in fact I think it is that they dislike her and cannot cope with her behaviour? In my opinion this is poor on the part of the nursery that they're not willing to continue to support, and a shame for our daughter that we may have to start all over again.
Like I said at the beginning a long post and am I being precious?

It's not you OP, our collective understanding of autism is rapidly evolving, especially in females (but also generally). The classic stereotype of a remote child who doesn't form relationships, has no imagination, is of either very low or very high intelligence etc is really outdated, but it does persist. My autistic child (male) is incredibly loving and empathic and has an amazing imagination, but there are ways in which he is very obviously autistic. The professionals will assess her rigorously, they don't diagnose children unless they are sure.

Sounds like they know what they're talking about. There are several kids at my daughter's nursery who need extra support. Almost 1-1 which they can't facilitate with the ratios they have. It's not that they don't want to help or can't deal with 'difficult' children but they only have so many staff and access to additional funding is hard to get. Most parents are extremely defensive when it's raised which doesn't help anyone.

It’s not a trait in all autistic children that they don’t show affection , there are many other factors .

we are waiting a full assessment of autism and I do think my DS has it , even though he is affectionate and loving .

But to warn you the waiting lists are huge , we’re on a 27month one , so even though you think your daughter is too young by the time they asses her she most likely won’t be .

Some children with autism can be “over affectionate”.
We have autistic children in school that have to be told “They are telling you they don’t want a hug now” when they are grabbing other children roughly and the child being hugged is clearly saying No.

If she is diagnosed. This would potentially open up additional funding - with this funding the nursery may feel more able to manage the challenges. Without it, sounds like they don't.

(Although don't get me wrong, it's not a quick fix!).

From referral to diagnosis was 22 months.
She has additional support through an ehcp at school. She can struggle to focus with the noise in class, so she does lessons in class, but has a few 5 minutes recaps and summaries 1-1 throughout the day too.
She also has extra support with an adult helping her collect her meal at lunch as the noise in there can overwhelm her, and she has some small group sessions to support her social skills and building of friendship.
Depending on the teacher a diagnosis can also lead to them having more understanding and patience than if the child is undiagnosed.

I'm an SEN teacher, working with students with complex autism. Some of them are very affectionate, often over affectionate.

I know it's hard to accept but nursery are probably the best judges of "normal" behaviour in three year olds. The system is slow, so the sooner you can get support the better

The nursery really aren't being unprofessional, they have your child's best interests at heart.
It's much more in your child's interests to initiate an assessment of her needs now.
It definitely sounds like it would be a positive way forward to have her assessed.

@1AngelicFruitCake apologies missed the other message, I absolutely agree they need to keep the other children safe also and that is a priority, they should not have to keep my daughter away. I also agreed they are probably ill equipped based on the new influx too.

You have nothing to loose by taking her for the assessment, and everything to gain. It's hard to hear that your child may have additional needs, but it's in her interests to put any extra support in place if at all possible.

they've asked to refer her for SEN/Autism assessments which we've said no to as she is far too young to assess, they recommend about 6yrs for Autism.

No she isn't too young.
Who "recommends about 6 yrs for Autism" ?
There are hugely long waiting lists for assessment across the country. She won't get a diagnosis for some time yet. More importantly, she won't get a diagnosis if she doesn't have Autism.
If she does have Autism, then it will help her hugely if people are aware of that and can support her with her needs.

I feel that as they have made this diagnosis

No they haven't - they have suggested referring for further investigation / assessment.

From what you have described, it makes a lot of sense referring for further assessment. Obviously none of us know her, but the odds are that the Nursery staff have a lot of experience of what is typical for 2and 1/2 yr olds and for 3 yr olds and have a good idea of when a child ought to be referred for further assessment.

It is perfectly reasonable to not want to offer more hours to a child who is presenting with behaviour that hurts other children, especially when the parents aren't yet ready to accept there may be some differences there.
Nurseries just don't have 'spare staff' anymore to offer 1:1 support.

@jennylamb1 she is not recognising social boundaries when she does not want to. She is able to when she does, her terms. It was my thoughts about being so young, is it not wasted at this stage, but I agree nothing to lose and to get on the list. What was your son doing to get a referral if you do not mind me asking? Has he settled now there is a diagnosis?

Generally speaking, private nurseries are run for the sole purpose of making money. They tend to be slow burners in terms of starting up (as it takes a long time to establish trust/reputation) and they are sometimes heavily in debt as a result of this. This deficit has to be made up and costs are kept to an absolute minimal.

Not all staff in private nurseries are qualified. They are usually paid less than local authority run nurseries. Furthermore, they tend to get less continuous professional development.

Bottom line - it doesn't make financial sense for them to keep on your daughter when she requires additional support from staff. Furthermore, her continued behaviour will cause upset among parents who are paying for their children to be kept safe.

Before anyone jumps on me I am not condoning this approach - I worked in education for many many years and this is simply how it is.

With the “no diagnosis before 6” thing, that’s not true but whoever told you may have confused it with ADHD, where my understanding is that professionals won’t diagnose it before a certain age.

I would agree to get the assessment. If she isn’t autistic, she won’t be diagnosed. If she is diagnosed, that may help you access more support for her in school if she needs it.

I know some people are anxious about children being “labelled”. I’m going to be honest, she may be labelled because of her behaviour - life will be easier with a diagnosis to explain those and you may get a better idea of what strategies could help.

I had some concerns about DC1, which most people didn’t (or wouldn’t) see. We’re now getting him assessed privately aged 8. While some of his behaviours have eased, the ways in which he’s different from his peers have become more apparent.

@Marblessolveeverything absolutely agree, but I did say in a post further up felt that there were others that needed that diagnosis more than we do and was hoping that it is just typical behaviour. I agree nothing to lose and will engage with nursery again, and want to get her all the support she needs, however as the referrals can take some time, it does not help us in the current situation of the nursery being unable to up her days as partner is due to start a new job in March (when we said no rush this was in October thinking we had plenty of time).

100% @JustAGirlScotland . I have a family member who ran an outstanding third sector nursery and then went on to do lecturing and visiting a wide range of provisions. The things she said about some private nurseries! My autistic child moved from preprep to a Sure Start nursery on a rough estate. Guess which one met her needs, had degree-qualified staff and were generally brilliant?

. We do not think she is at all, she's affectionate with most and she does recognise when people are upset.

^ many people with Autism can do this. My step son recognises it, but has absolutely no time for it. Also loves cuddles on his terms only and will over step with others and have no idea how they can not want a cuddle right now, because he wants one.

I think they're saying if we don't get professional input to help us manage her needs, we can't meet her needs. Take ASD out of it is there any other way they can access support for their staff to know how to help her?

Please don’t delay assessment. My DD25 has ASD but wasn’t diagnosed until she was almost 18. Looking back I knew something wasn’t right when she was at playgroup at 3 or 4, she struggled and we struggled for years and years not knowing what was wrong. Life for her (and us) would have been so much easier with appropriate support in place. She is ok now, but please please don’t delay.

@Redlocks28 Yes absolutely agree, they are the professionals and we will agree to the referral.

My comment that they have made this diagnosis that she is SEN is actually in relation to the nursery and that they themselves have already categorized her (without official diagnosis).

Was not blocking anything, just did not feel that it was worth us taking up a space on a list that is more beneficial for someone else. I have said further up the post I feel that we were not very well versed in the whole Autism diagnosis part - yes we read about signs, actions etc but the initial bit I think we are a bit blind to. It says difficult to diagnose until older etc etc. So we thought we were right to hold off for now. We did visit the health visitor and she does not believe she is Autistic - we did arrange a visit when the nursery first suggested this to get support as we want to do everything possible to help her in her life and make things easier for her to navigate.

Is there an alternative provision more able to meet her needs? There is only so much capacity in a provision. I see friends of mine running creches constantly juggling resources to ensure all childrens needs are met.

@mobogogi wow that is early!! See my thoughts of diagnosis at an older age completely blown out of the water 😀If you do not mind me asking how was that done so early?

It’s kind you’re thinking of other children who might need it more but I’d say your child is in need. No one can say what her needs are but I think it’s great you’re taking on board what posters are saying.

@KateyCuckoo I agree and like I said being precious and bias of course but our daughter is no worse than a colleagues little girl, in fact ours is an angel in comparison! I thought girls were easier! Joking aside we are all for the support and if she has Autism them it really is no issue at all, we want her to get the best support there is available to navigate her life, but honestly just did not think it was.
We are working with the nursery completely, given them free reign to do what they see fit and we have regular debriefs / updates / we share anything that we think can trigger as do they, we did / do have a good relationship.

@mobogogi Yes working, and partner starts a new job in March as she has taken the time off with our daughter.

This is a myth. And the presentation of Autism in girls is significantly different to the presentation of autism in boys. Another myth is that people with autism are not affectionate,
It is also a myth that Autism isn't diagnosed until 6.