Government payment to nursery for funded hours

[forwardsandbackwardsandup]

Our nursery has changed owners and the fees are sky rocketing. I have found what I think is the answer online, but hoped a nursery worker might be able to confirm. How much can the nursery claim from the government for the funded hours? We're in Scotland and I found info saying £5.79 per hour and £3 for lunch for our local authority. They are charging us £50 per day for 10hrs, so does that mean they can only claim £50? Or that they're getting £60.90 (£57.90+£3)?

I've read threads saying that govt contributions don't cover their costs, but in this case it seems they do? Appreciate it might be different in different parts of the country. They are wanting to add on fees of £3 per session (each half day) for funded sessions only to cover resources. Trying to work out if they really need this to cover costs or whether they're money grabbing chancers!

This is so frustrating: Early years providers are not money grabbing chancers. We deserve to be paid the right rate for the work we provide.

In Suffolk our rate from the government has increased to £4.60 for 3/4 year olds. For 2 year olds it is higher because the funding is for disadvantaged children. It's only for 15 hours - 30 if you're eligible.

You're being asked to pay £5 an hour for your childcare. You don't say if your child is in full time care which dilutes the 30 hours. But what do you think your £5 an hour pays for?! This includes education (ie experienced and skilled people to deliver this- and training), consumables, experiences and resources like paper and paint. Not to mention increasing costs in electricity and gas, but also wages and pension. You may be able to use the tax free childcare system to pay your bills, if you eat under £100k.

Ultimately, eyfs providers are giving up. We are tired of hearing how expensive we are. We deserve to be paid the money it costs to care for your DC. There are fewer of us- nurseries and childminders - every month I hear of a setting or two closing down. Very rarely hear of new ones setting up. Please don't call us chancers- we are not making money out of you, we are tired and given evermore things to do to be ofsted ready. Blame the government for not supporting our eyfs sector when every other country in the world does. Follow pregnant then screwed and show your ire there. Also, don't relinquish your space at this nursery until you are certain you can get another space. I've nothing til September 2024 and know most in my area are similar.

I'm trying to understand how the funding works. I get 22.5hrs per week funded which is 2 full days (8-5) and one morning (8-12.30). Our fees before Xmas were £46 (for 8-6). They're now £50 and new parents are charged £55. Yes, I appreciate that the price of everything has skyrocketed, but if they are able to claim 9x£5.79=£52.11 plus £3 lunch for a full day (a full funded day being an hour shorter than a standard 8-6) then what do they need the extra £6 per day for? Can't see my child going through £6 worth of paint/sand/snacks in one day.

If £55.11 a day doesn't cut it then why are their fees only £50 for paying customers (albeit paying customers on the older contract)? I'm genuinely trying to understand, not being goady.

They're levying various additional fees inconsistently across the parents and it's causing a bit of dissent as people aren't being treated equally however are receiving the same service for their child but at wildly different costs.

Our fees increased 9% in January, fair enough, but we've been told there's another increase coming in August and I can assume it will bring us in line with the £55 charged to newbies. This is just shy of 20% in less than a year. You've not made it clear what your position is, but would you find it acceptable increasing your fees by that much? Do you think your customers would be happy? Am I supposed to just suck it up cos my kid is happy there? If it's justifiable, then that's fine. But there have been untruths told about additional fees that make me think they're changing it and trying to get as much out of us as possible.

It sounds like their true prices are now £55 a day, but they are making a gradual change for existing customers.

Living wage rises, cost of electricity rises (my husband’s office has an electric bill increase of 400%!), cost of food for the lunch etc.

On that basis - and quite unusually as most free hours are NOT fully funded - they look to be receiving slightly more per hour from the council than they would charge privately. However, they may be anticipating further rises in costs.

I don’t think they are money grabbing chancers - margins will be very tight - but if you want to ask about the “session” charges for clarity, it’s fair to do so.

“Am I supposed to just suck it up cos my kid is happy there?”

How much do other settings charge per day? In my area it’s about £75 so I have a different frame of reference. But if there’s a cheaper option, you could move your DC.

I canvassed friends and most are paying between £45 and £55 per day. It was the cheapest nursery by a fair bit when our child first started 2yrs ago, although we chose it due to location rather than because it was cheap. I suppose there's a value in having a 4 min walk to drop off vs a 15 min walk or even a drive. Except if I'm going to be paying the higher fees perhaps there's another setting that is better in other ways.

In all likelihood I'm going to do nothing. I have 2 kids who are both very happy there. I wanted to understand how the funding worked. The ladies who work there are amazing and if I thought the extras were to help pay them appropriately, or to make up the funding gap then fair enough. I think the Scottish government are more generous with the funding, I read an enormous article about how each council contribute to making it a sustainable figure.

I'd rather the fees were just increased to £55 rather than then claiming it's still £50 but then adding in random extras. I think a bit of fee transparency would go a long way here.

I don't even understand the maths but wanted to say if you like it then £5 a day isn't much

I would be surprised if the childcare providers are getting £5.79 per hr. It’s likely the amount the local authority get before they cream off up to 5%. Local to me the LA get £4.50 from government but the providers got £3.40. This is one of the reasons I stopped childminding, I could not afford to offer the funding and did not see why I should subsidise my clients childcare .

This is really helpful. I saw the £5.79 figure and assumed that's what they'd get. If they were able to say ok we get £4.90 (or whatever) from the govt but we need £5.50 per hour to meet our costs so need you to top up 60p per hour I would be a lot more understanding than all the random fees.

@forwardsandbackwardsandup my understanding is that providers cannot explicitly charge a top up fee. They can charge for food and whatnot, though.

So they're being forced to make up "resource/sundry" fees in order to cover themselves and cannot be transparent with parents. Gotta love politics eh.

I don't get your post. You are not being charged £50 or £55 or whatever. You have a free place. You are bing charge £6 per full day and £3 per half day - so £9 per week for 2.5 days childcare. Sounds good value to me...... Are you working part time? If so, maybe pay it.

(I understand sort of the point you are making, in answer....the government funding doesn't cover all costs in a private nursery, there are strict rules about what can and can't be charged for....having heard many tales over many years.....yes yours is one of the cheapest. Of your child is happy pay the £23 per week.)

I don't know if it's different in Scotland but when I researched it a few years ago I found it virtually impossible to find an accurate figure for what a nursery will get, there isn't a single set rate that's exactly the same for every nursery, there are factors like how deprived the area is and various incentives and boosters. £5.79 sounds very unrealistic to me, it would be great if nurseries could get that rate but I expect that's a maximum that it's very difficult to qualify for - a nursery wouldn't be able to just say "oh yes our rate is £5.50 per hour" and claim that. they'll be more likely to actually be getting some amount around £4 per hour for the funded hours and relying on enough parents paying for further hours over the funded allocation to make up the shortfall.

How much are you actually paying? £6 a day? Sorry I got confused by all the numbers

Yep. It’s mad. Would be much easier to say “our fees are £6 an hour and we get £5, please pay us the difference”

Urgh. Wrote a reply then it disappeared. It's £15 a week. For someone to look after my most precious thing, yes, it's cheap. But £60 a month when it was previously zero is a massive leap and not affordable for many. Brings in the question on whether it is childcare or education. Seems to be a bit of a grey area. Would you be happy to pay £15 per week for your child to go to primary school? What about £30 a week? Or £100 a week? I'm sure the schools are crying out for money in the same way as the nursery is.

I guess the answer is to find a council nursery, except having a younger child too this isn't going to work having 2 different drop offs in the morning. And council nursery places are like gold dust. Maybe these are the things I just need to suck up, I'm paying £15 a week to be able to have my kids in the same setting (plus of course the full fees for the younger child). Or I'm paying £15 a week to be able to have full year childcare vs term time only.

This. A qualified adult looking after your child every second they’re there, toys, materials, nappies and food if included, electricity, heating, cleaning bills, admin, management, maintenance of play areas. How cheap do you expect all that to be?

Would you be happy to pay £15 per week for your child to go to primary school? What about £30 a week? Or £100 a week? I'm sure the schools are crying out for money in the same way as the nursery is.

have you heard of something called the ‘private sector’?

If you can't afford £15 a week you might have to give up work

Would you be happy to pay £15 per week for your child to go to primary school? What about £30 a week? Or £100 a week? no but nursery is optional?!

I'm not sure if the system in Scotland is different. In England the real cost of educating a preschooler is say £7 hr but we get about £4 from the government to provide this 'free space (made up numbers but around those figures). That means a £3 shortfall per funded child per hour.

The government expects us to pay one adults wage for every 8 children, provide all their education and provide the materials to do this, train each adult and keep mandatory qualifications topped up. Sometimes you need a tighter ratio if children have SEN or behaviour needs so perhaps an extra wage needs to be paid for the number of children. Private nurseries have to pay VAT whereas schools and nurseries linked to schools don't have to pay this. We have to provide meals/snacks. We have to keep the premises warm and well maintained. Insurance. Follow whatever ofsted rules are currently in place so you need to pay admin hours. There are a lot of costs behind delivering an education to preschoolers that parents don't see. Those few pounds extra per week your nursery asks for 'consumables' may be the only thing keeping it running and breaking even.

We can't be transparent as to what we are asking the extra money for because then we expose the government lie that they are providing free childcare spaces!

And I'd be supplying a packed lunch that yeah probably would cost £15 a week

The primary school comparison doesn't make sense though. You could take 30 hours instead, term time only, the exact same hours as school.

I'm sorry if I missed it - but is your child there year round, or term time only?

If its anything like school funding the amount each nursery will get will vary according to a formula and will change each year.
In my area area three nurseries have closed as they cant make ends meet and two joined together. I think the government is going to have to address this soon as availability is going to force people out of work.

When I was a kid, I went to nursery school for free, attached to a primary school. My mum was a SAHM though, and I think I went 5 mornings a week (there was definitely a morning and afternoon session).

That was education, and in a sense, is the same as the offer now. Just that there were a lot fewer private providers 40 years ago.

Now private childcare providers run full days, probably 8-6, and have to provide education during the childcare hours. The government half-arsedly funds some of these hours up to a max number per week on a term time basis. The provider follows the same standards for education whether the child is using the funded hours or not (ofsted rules).

Council nurseries run 9-3 (or similar) in term time and only provide education, not childcare. Though I think can still top up for lunch and supplies charges. But (I assume) buildings are council or school owned etc and so matters like rent are not the direct responsibility of the nursery.

They are two different beasts.

And just as there aren’t enough NHS dentists for the population, there aren’t enough council nursery spaces, so a private sector exists.