Government payment to nursery for funded hours

[forwardsandbackwardsandup]

Our nursery has changed owners and the fees are sky rocketing. I have found what I think is the answer online, but hoped a nursery worker might be able to confirm. How much can the nursery claim from the government for the funded hours? We're in Scotland and I found info saying £5.79 per hour and £3 for lunch for our local authority. They are charging us £50 per day for 10hrs, so does that mean they can only claim £50? Or that they're getting £60.90 (£57.90+£3)?

I've read threads saying that govt contributions don't cover their costs, but in this case it seems they do? Appreciate it might be different in different parts of the country. They are wanting to add on fees of £3 per session (each half day) for funded sessions only to cover resources. Trying to work out if they really need this to cover costs or whether they're money grabbing chancers!

I'm not determined to assume the worst. Laying out the figures shows that the funding should be covering their costs. This is what I am questioning. It seems this is an unusual case of it being that way round rather than there being a shortfall. Everyone is so used to top ups being standard where you live so can't see why I'm objecting when it doesn't seem to stack up in my situation.

Maybe the owners can't be bothered arguing. Or maybe they don't have a particularly valid argument.

In all likelihood I'm going to do nothing but grumble about it on the internet. My child is happy there and will remain there until she starts primary school in Aug 2024. I may consider a different setting for my younger one once elder starts school as there will be 2 drop offs anyway.

@Moonicorn yes, the government. I am expecting them to fulfil their 1140 funded hours. In the same way that I expect them to educate my child for 13yrs without me having to pay a penny. Just like we all get. It's either education, which should be free. Or childcare, which shouldn't.

It’s childcare.

It is childcare which needs to provide activities in line with EYFS, which involves forms and planning and what not. This framework is educational.

If you were a SAHP or had a nanny, you don’t need to pass an ofsted and no EYFS is required.

Childminders, preschools and nurseries are early years educators. That doesn’t mean it should be free, especially when you are choosing to use the private sector. It is your choice to use a private business, nobody is making you. Early education is a choice as is where you go for that early education.

businesses have to make a profit otherwise they fold. They’re not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts and why should they. If I were to care for and educate with no monetary incentive I just wouldn’t do it. I would look for employment elsewhere.

Without the private sector there wouldn’t be enough availability for all the children that need spaces. People would have to give up work because they would find themselves with no childcare alternatives. The way things are going the private sector is shrinking day by day. People are up in arms because they have to pay towards their child’s care and early education yet they may find themselves floundering when settings close their doors

The nursery is completely optional though

£50 a day is an absolute bargain. Good luck if Scotland get their independence!£80+ around here. Given rise in cost of living, the nursery seems to have raised costs by a fair and reasonable percentage.

Childminders, preschools and nurseries are early years educators. That doesn’t mean it should be free, especially when you are choosing to use the private sector. It is your choice to use a private business, nobody is making you. Early education is a choice as is where you go for that early education.

This.

Where I am in England I have the choice for early education using mixture of:

• Some state primary schools for 3 sessions a week during term time. I cannot choose the sessions.
• Some charity run nurseries for a minimum of 2 or 3 full days per week depending on the age of the child
• Private childminders, preschools and nurseries who are regulated by OFSTED for the agreed minimum number of sessions the provider decides in their contract
• Employing my own nanny who is OFSTED registered on the terms that nanny agrees to with me
• Paying my own nanny or babysitt who are not regulated by OFSTED and who can do what activities they like

I use a mixture of a private childminder and a charity run nursery. Other parents who use my childminder do or have done a mixture of state nursery or private nursery.

The childminder hasn't put her fees up this year but I suspect when my DD and another mindee go to school she will. The charity and private nurseries have.

“Without the private sector there wouldn’t be enough availability for all the children that need spaces. People would have to give up work because they would find themselves with no childcare alternatives. The way things are going the private sector is shrinking day by day.”

This.

Laying out the figures shows that the funding should be covering their costs.

Are you happy that the people mainly looking after your child are on national minimum wage?

The private nurseries around me have staff on NMW which is why they have difficulty retaining staff. The charity run nursery my DD goes to pays more but insists on recruiting staff who live locally. They also have a staff member who should be retired who is still working to ensure that the charitable aims are met.

BTW you do know employers have employment costs for their staff? These will have gone up like everything else. Also chains can use debt to fund their purchase of another nursery.

They're a business. They care about your kids but they need to be able to pay their staff and bills. Nurseries are more often than not on the cusp of closing. God knows how they make the 3+ age groups work.

The prior owners may well have sold to avoid running at a loss!

If you don't want a regulated childcare provider hire a babysitter. The EYFS is in place to ensure the people who care for your child are qualified and verified to provide a nurturing, safe and beneficial environment for your child. If you do not require these things for your child while you work just put an ad on gumtree for a random to watch her.

Mandatory education starts at 4/5. This is a right of the child to an education. Not a right of a parent to childcare.

Where did you get the £5.79 from? If it's what government pay the LA then that is not what they pay providers as forwards and backwards says they remove a percentage to pay wages and costs of administering the funding then fees are allocated according to criteria like send provision, areas of deprivation, schools get more, then private settings. They are not allowed to charge the shortfall but can ask for fees for other things as a voluntary charge. Like everyone rates, utilities and food costs are rising and now minimum wage has gone up to whilst in effect funding has fallen even further behind against last year. Do you want nurseries to exist or do you want Trusses straight to school model with children being cared for by higher child to staff ratios like 1 to 10 or 15 for under 3s?

I don't understand, I'd love a monthly childcare bill of £60!!
I have a 2.5 year old and their monthly bill is just over £1300, when they turn 3 we will get some funded hours but because of how they can be used our bill will still remain at approx £700.
Even when our eldest (now 7) was at nursery and got funded hours, we still had to pay £500 a month.

We need to use childcare in order for us to work, the bills are just part of it and will stop once they reach school age.

The 'free hours' from the government has never been enough to pay for a childcare place.

Worth reading nursery closure statistics

@ForTheLoveOfSleep mandatory school age is 5 in the UK.

Parents can, particularly those who won't turn 4 until the long summer holidays, can ask for their child's entry to be deferred until the child is 5 e.g. delay their child's entry until the academic year the child turns 6.

Your nursery will also have the inflated costs of food, utilities, training, insurance, consumables, business rates and the massive increase in minimum wage....many private nursery owners are not taking wages at the moment but doing second jobs.

This.

Nearly all the private nurseries around me are ran by chains, even small chains, as the sole family run ones sold up years ago.

I expect the nearest one that is run by a couple to be sold on soon as the couple are elderly and they seem to be putting things in place so they can sell up a viable business.

We pay £176 a month for our 3 year old, he’s in about 30 hours over 3 days and we get 23 hours of that funded (because he’s all year rather than just term time). I think that’s exceptional value. I was well aware of how much childcare cost before we chose to have him 🤷‍♀️

Those who only use the funded hours (30 or 23) in our nursery were recently asked to pay £60 per month to cover increases in cost of living because the funding it receives doesn’t cover the essentials. I think that’s fair.

Yes, I'm slightly amazed my old nursery is still running (my kids are now teens) but it is in a converted house and I assume the manager owns the building outright. She certainly does the books and invoicing on her own time. It's £75-£80 per day now, though, vs around £50 ten years ago. Funding rate in my area is just under £5.50 ph

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/08/sick-child-budget-working-parent-nursery-uk

You're right. It is not a feasible business model. We are underfunded and undervalued and a LOT of childminders - 10000 in the last 5 years - have gone.

The council get a rate and then decide how much to pass on to us. They take a cut! Apparently Suffolk is one of the poorest funding rates in the country. Our neighbours, Essex, get a 1/3 more. We are allowed to ask for voluntary contributions to cover consumables resources outings etc because your kids cost us money to provide education for. We are allowed to charge higher rates for hours outside of funded rates because if we don't: WE WILL HAVE TO CLOSE.

Just pay the £60 a month - jeez use the tax free childcare and you'll get 20% paid for by the government anyway.

But if they're able to claim £5.79 per hour which is what the govt website suggests, then the extra fees seem unnecessary and greedy

Would you like to be paid 5.79 an hour, then have to deal with bills, wages and food shop on top?

Nurseries are worth a hell of a lot more than what they get sadly.

£60 a month though, I'd be over the moon with that.

So nursery gets less if we use funded ours?
why would the government say they are funding 30 hours if it doesn’t actually cover the cost of what we would pay for 30 hours without funding?

or have I missed something?!! I’m so confused lol.