Government payment to nursery for funded hours

[forwardsandbackwardsandup]

Our nursery has changed owners and the fees are sky rocketing. I have found what I think is the answer online, but hoped a nursery worker might be able to confirm. How much can the nursery claim from the government for the funded hours? We're in Scotland and I found info saying £5.79 per hour and £3 for lunch for our local authority. They are charging us £50 per day for 10hrs, so does that mean they can only claim £50? Or that they're getting £60.90 (£57.90+£3)?

I've read threads saying that govt contributions don't cover their costs, but in this case it seems they do? Appreciate it might be different in different parts of the country. They are wanting to add on fees of £3 per session (each half day) for funded sessions only to cover resources. Trying to work out if they really need this to cover costs or whether they're money grabbing chancers!

Ds does two days 9-5 and one 9-3 we are eligible for 30 hours funding term time only, nurseries don't have to stretch funding and around here the decent ones don't, because they need the money from the holidays to balance the books. Nursery bill this month was £369 on top of his funding. They are worth every penny. People are willing to pay dog walkers more than childcare providers, it's ridiculous.

“So nursery gets less if we use funded ours?”

yes

“why would the government say they are funding 30 hours if it doesn’t actually cover the cost of what we would pay for 30 hours without funding?”

rule 1: politicians lie. See also: 40 new hospitals, side of a brexit bus

“or have I missed something?!!”

see rule 1.

Oh yes good points, I even feel silly for asking lol.

its a shame they are so underfunded and don’t get what they deserve and that the government doesn’t actually fund enough.

i had a couple nanny jobs in the past and they always treated me good and even the grandparents when they came to visit just wanted to take care of me lol. Basically I was treated so special and important as I was looking after the children which was the most precious job and everyone was so grateful.
childcare jobs are usually longer hours since needed before and after work etc

I think once we get funding , if we stay with the private nursery will be about £400 per month, before the childcare discount So probably similar to yours. . I also feel it will be worth it.

www.eyalliance.org.uk/news/2021/06/new-data-shows-ministers-knew-early-years-was-underfunded

Oh thank you for the article link!

The article is from a couple of years ago but it gets worse year on year. They’re considering extended the funding entitlement to younger age groups yet don’t want to actually cover the cost, if anything the funding rates will drop as they don’t have the money to cover things as it is

I would Check with your councils early years team about your particular circumstances. I provide funded childcare in Scotland & it is very clear that funded hours of childcare must be free at point of use to the family who uses their hours with you. We are only able to charge parents for any additional childcare hours used which are paid for privately. Families cannot be charged for resources like crafts, toys etc. But can be charged for things such as nappies/wipes if they do not provide them for their child. Food costs are c9vered as well by the Scot gov payment for lunches plus a milk/snack scheme payment for pre schoolers. The only thing I would expect to pay for is a big trip perhaps & even this should be optional.

Should say appreciate this is different in England but we get a rate of payment which is higher than most childcare providers charge hourly anyway so no excuse really for additional charges to parents!

're fees - these should be transparent & consistent for all users. As part of the funded commissioning process in Scotland childcare providers are required to submit sample invoices to their early years team & have strict list of additional costs to parents.

OP the chat about discounts for daily rates if using funded hours is in England. It does not apply in Scotland where funded childcre must be FREE POINT OF USE so top up fees cannot be applied for those 30 hours.
Not all nurseries/childminders provide funded childcare due to this but the majority do & if the council finds them to breach this then would lose their partnership provider status.
We have a different system up in Scotland - all 3 yr olds are entitled to 30hours funded childcare irrespective of parents income. 'Vulnerable 2 yr olds also are entitled of they meet certain criteria.

Gosh, I wish the funding rate in England was so good. I lose £2.55 an hour with funding, it’s abysmal

Oh thanks. That’s good to know. I am in Scotland. I was feeling all confused when people were talking about top up fees. . My LO isn’t 3 yet but the nursery sends the fee structures for all years and so I know once LO turns 3 that 2.5 days will be free and then will pay for the rest (1.5 days). (Full day up to 9.5 hours)
that works out to roughly 24 hours a week spread over the year - 48 weeks because they close for 2 weeks over Christmas and 2 over the summer and they don’t charge for that.
soem people have mentioned their funding only covers 6 hours a day and they have to pay the extra..

Thanks so much. All your posts are really helpful and have made me feel less like a money grabber who thinks the world owes me free childcare 😅 too many people not believing that the council rate quoted isn't what they actually get, despite finding evidence online saying they must pass on 95% of it. Not surprising that it's so different, I know not everyone is a fan but I believe the Scottish Government when they say they're investing in our children. Shame their hands are tied to an extent by ridiculous Tory policies.

You also don’t pay business rates, which can be upwards of £1000 per month, and I assume you don’t pay 40k a year or more in rent.

That said, there are far fewer people in Scotland so I expect the Scottish government can afford to be more generous with the childcare funding. How much per hour do you get? And what are the rules around VAT? Do you have to pay it on goods and services?

Our nursery hourly rate is 6.10 per hour. Our funded rate is 4.90 per hour. We charge funded children for lunch.

The funding money only covers the hours attended and not meal times.

Anything over the 15 hours funded is charged for and 30 hours funding is the same. If you spread your funding across the year, we charge for the hours outside of that and if you take your funding for term time only, you pay for anything above the 30 hours a week you use, lunches and if you do extra days in holidays.

Nursery owners are not money grabbing chances but I can assure you that many many nurseries are struggling to keep their heads above better. Fantastic to think many people, including yourself, have very low opinions of them. Makes our jobs even more worthwhile!!

@AbreathofFrenchair ok, so you are not a money grabber. Doesn't mean these guys aren't. Our funded rate is £5.79, they charge slightly less than this. So why do they need to charge on top? Various other dubious practices have come to light since I originally posted. I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush. The previous owners were lovely, kept fees reasonable and paid staff the living wage.

Maybe not all nurseries, (but probably I think?) but the ones I looked at and the one LO will go to have extra activities from outside ie music teacher, yoga, etc
if we had a nanny it would cost at least double and then we would still have to pay activities on top of that.

we would also have to buy all our own resources - craft materials, outdoor classroom, etc etc.
I feel like with LO going to nursery we really won’t have to buy so much as there will be access to so much at nursery and they will be around other kids.

Recent posters, OP is in Scotland and it seems that the government there does fund hours at something like the private cost, unlike England.

I looked up the funding for my area in Scotland - my LO is not 3 yet but we have been given fee structures for all years at our nursery.
it seems to be a £10 difference a day , so the nursery charge a bit more still, perhaps the government funds are not quite enough to cover costs?
fees for 1-2 are more, then it decreases a bit each year.
however the nursery does not charge extra on top of funded hours for lunch etc. Lunch is provided by local authority for all 3 and up kids.
So I think all nurseries are struggling and maybe they all find different ways of managing increasing costs but maybe all evens out somehow.

My sibling is in a different area in Scotland and her nursery fees are almost £20 more a day than where I am. they get free lunch before 3 years old but after 3 have to pay for it.
i provide packed lunch for LO for now until 3 and then the nursery provides all meals after that.

See, it’s things like nurseries being forced to give parents the option to provide a packed lunch that makes it so very difficult to operate.

Nurseries are not schools - they are much, much smaller, so the money cannot stretch as far. For example, if a nursery provides meals, it has to cover the cost of running a kitchen. The bulk of the money goes on paying the wages of the kitchen staff. 10 out of 30 children might bring a packed lunch, but the difference in price of catering for 20 as opposed to 30 is minimal. However, the loss to the nursery is substantial. If everyone was bringing a packed lunch, it would be fine, but why would anyone send in a packed lunch for a 3 year old if a cooked lunch was funded?

Parents have all the power. There are more of them, so they are more valuable to the government as voters. They must have CHOICE. Meanwhile, nurseries have no power and must accept losses like this to make the government look better and as though they are standing in solidarity with parents.

The government do not understand the early years sector. They seem to think the sector makes money, as do the majority of parents. Choice is wonderful, but it is more costly than take it or leave it. The sector is funded at take it or leave it levels. The government needs to be upfront about this or the sector will collapse.

@User8646382
yeh I think it makes sense for us to provide lunch for our LO . It’s a small nursery and I don’t think it would be that cost effective to provide lunch for the babies and toddlers all at different stages of weaning etc. Maybe lots of food would go to Waste etc.

Our local authority provides free meals for ages 3 and all years at primary school. (Well I think it’s free meals in primary school for all of Scotland?!)
I know several children who prefer to take lunch box to school even though the free school dinners is already available . That funding is already there and makes me wonder if lots of food is going to waste…. But maybe those kids I know are in the minority… I don’t know.

Just been told our rate for 3 year olds is unchanged this year so thats toddler groups, forest schools and outings off the curriculum

Is your funded rate what the government are paying your LA or what the LA is paying your nursery? And if the latter how did you find out as it's not published anywhere and certainly in my LA settings were only told this evening and it's not gone up despite our Government published rate increasing.

@jannier I found it deep inside a document on the Scot Gov website that the rate is £5.79 for my area. I found somewhere else something that says that councils must pass on at least 95% of that to private nurseries, so that's £5.50 in the worst case. I did all my googling a week or so ago so don't have the links to hand but searching for Early Years Funding rates Scotland did the trick. The £3 lunch rate is in there too.

I found the English figures first and outside of London it seems the average is between £4.50 and £5 which doesn't seem like it would cover costs (especially if the council don't pass it all on), and seems to be why pretty much every poster is coming down on me like a ton of bricks suggesting for suggesting that my nursery is anything other than making ends meet. For what it's worth, other local nurseries charge £45-£60 per day here, which I know some people will find extremely cheap.