Nursery asked us to remove our 2 year old - need success stories

[LazJaz]

This is long, thank you in advance for reading.

Our DS 26months has been in nursery since 11.5months
Towards the end of his time in the baby room, he began to exhibit difficulties in controlling his emotions and was biting other children.
He was moved to the toddler room about 6 weeks ago. Seemed to do really well at first and biting behavior stopped, however over the past few weeks the behavior has come back, and ramped up to the extent that nursery had a shadow on him, suggested he may have ADHD, requested a referral for an assessment (which was rejected by the local authority because they need referrals from SALT at the moment) and finally despite some improvements (better communication, naming feelings, several days with no biting attempts,) they now feel that they can no longer sustain the level of support he needs and they have suggested it’s not the right setting for him. They have given us one month’s notice and have been very supportive throughout his time at nursery.

They believe that the behavior is possibly the result of sensory processing disorder as he is not biting in anger but now biting seemingly unprovoked by other children and is uninterested in the response of the bitten child or surrounding adults. They are puzzled as he’s a bright child with excellent speech for his age, and they don’t feel that the biting behavior fits with the rest of his presentation.

They expressed this as a “with regret” decision, they say he’s charming, smart, and much loved but that the current situation is unsustainable for all parties.

I agree with and support their decision. They need to keep other children safe, and perhaps the biting is a sign of DS having needs they can’t meet.

But it’s devastating. He seems to enjoy his time at nursery (he talks about it at home positively and runs in on drop off). I’m also terrified for him - what will a change in setting do to his confidence? (we’re considering a range of options but nanny would probably be a stretch too far) ,what if we get it wrong again?

And I’m also scared and sad and angry for me. Even though I know this is inappropriate.

we’ve started aggressively pursuing appointments with SALT, gp, sensory specialists etc, anyone who will listen. We’re exploring new childcare options.

I’m looking for advice/guidance/wisdom/success stories - has this happened to anyone else? Did you go on to better things? What till did it take on your child? Were they able to go on to another setting with more success and without being labeled? If relevant, What toll did it take on your career? I’m the primary earner and so giving up work to focus on him isn’t a possibility for us without significant life changes (selling house, moving to new part of country etc). DH is brilliant but also at this point not interested in stopping work to become and SAAD.

thank you for reading and anything you may be able to share.

In our area, we also issue emergency funding for preschool children who are in m/s nurseries and need additional support. Again this is pre-ehcp. Local sendiass would know what processes are available locally.

Statutory school age is irrelevant, EHCPs are just as much for those below CSA as those of CSA. Just because LAs often refuse assessments doesn't mean going down the EHCNA route now is an unreasonable suggestion. A community paed assessment, autism assessment, SALT assessment is not needed before applying for an EHCNA. Schools/nurseries and LAs often incorrectly tell parents their child doesn’t need or won’t get an EHCP but the parents go on to successfully apply even if that is via SENDIST.

Not all LAs have specialist nursery places available to those undergoing assessment either. In many areas the waiting list for Portage is so long he will age out before he in seen, especially in the areas where the maximum age is at the lower end.

As I say in another thread, we have had a quadrupling of referrals in this age group for possible autism. It's not possible that 4x as many kids are now autistic. The signs are dysregulation, poor social interaction skills, delayed sharing skills.

And I am sure the nursery are seeing the same without excluding them all, yet they have still decided this child’s needs are so far outside the norm compared to his peers they need to exclude him.

As I said in my pp early years inclusion funding isn’t available to 2 year olds in all areas. SENDIASS are good in some areas, but too often they repeat the LA’s unlawful policies. IPSEA and SOSSEN are better.

My son became really unhappy at nursery and the head teacher suggested an educational psychologist so a meeting was held. His behaviour had become withdrawn and a little aggressive. The head said she thought he might be on the spectrum.
Anyway I sacked that thought and the educational psychologist. It turned out he was just needing time to mature and the nursery setting was just too long hours, very noisy for him at times and I had stuff going on where I was maybe not as emotionally available at home.
Do I looked up nurturing parenting and gave him more of my time at home, reduced the hours at nursery and built it up later. Took the time to read more stories and do one to one mum and son time. The outcome was his language came on leaps and bounds around age 4y 4 months. Speech and language therapy only had four sessions with him. They didn’t need to do any more work. He’s now happy, no behaviour problems and is ready for primary in August.
I absolutely refused to consider autism as I knew my parenting could improve and bring him. But it’s a team effort and looking at my son, myself and getting more time with family.
One of my thoughts is mums are not at home now so kids kind of get neglected to a certain extent nowadays. They really need an attachment figure and don’t get that at nursery so maybe a childminder is a good option. They need a substitute mummy when mums not available all the time.

Many nurseries are amazing but a minority don’t really handle anything out of their ken very well. My daughter was overly curious, did some fun experiments (filled the sink with water to see what would happen, dived into the cupboard to find other toys not already out 😂), found sitting in a circle a bit odd and didn’t want to, didn’t join in with the singing etc. And her nursery said she was naughty and something was wrong with her. We moved her pretty quickly to another nursery where her differences were celebrated, they handled her super well, encouraged and taught her how to cope with other kids etc, which didn’t come naturally. And she is now doing her GCSEs and is a happy, somewhat geeky, thoughtful and caring teenager. I feel sad for your son that he is also being labelled - it doesn’t mean the nursery is correct (there is not so much expertise often at nursery level), and if your son is ever diagnosed with anything like ADHD etc, it will be good for him to be in an environment where people know how to help him grow and celebrate him. Seriously, find a nursery or childminder where there is more knowledge on how to handle children that may be and act a bit differently to whatever ‘normal’ looks like to those with no expertise. This move could even be a great thing for him 😊😊

OP, why don’t you offer to pay extra to meet the costs of 1-1 provision within the nursery for your son? Obviously, if the EHCP was in place, the LA would be meeting these costs, but as it isn’t, you can’t really expect the nursery to meet them. It would be expensive (it’s expensive for the nursery), but less expensive than a nanny.

I think a childminder would be a disaster. You’d have all the other parents turning on you because the group would be small (3 or 4 kids) and your child would be labelled a bully. People are not kind about biting, no matter how young the child. Also, a childminder with no other adult support would be less able to cope than a nursery worker.

If I were you, I would pay for the 1-1 and appeal the LA’s decision.

Paying for a 1:1 at nosey would be no different than paying a nanny and you'd have usual nursery fees on top.

I work in a nursery and we would never ask a child to leave x

It can be very hard to support a child who bites in a busy group especially if the staffing is tight and there are other children in the group who need significant support. Often you can't start an application for an EHCP and other funding until the child turns three - unless a funded two year old - so there is no wriggle room for extra staffing. We have never asked a child to leave but I can understand why a setting may have difficulties supporting a child within the context of a wider cohort.
As the parent the best thing you can do - if you think you child may have wider issues - is to get support from your HV and the CDC so that any necessary referrals can be put in place as soon as possible which will help a new nursery get the support they need so they can support your child. I hope you find somewhere that can give you the support needed for your child and that the biting does turn out to be simply an age and communication thing.

Often you can't start an application for an EHCP and other funding until the child turns three - unless a funded two year old - so there is no wriggle room for extra staffing.

Yes you can, there is no lawful reason you can’t apply for an EHCNA before 3.

@EYProvider Thanks for your suggestion - not one I’d actually considered possible but maybe worth thinking about. Will write to nursery and see if it’s a possibility. Although not sure whether it’s what I would want now, as I feel the nursery have rejected him, after reading some of the view on this thread I am less awed by them than i was before.

Are there patterns that they might not have spotted? Like does he do it on certain days or when certain workers or children are in?

Thank you @HumphreysCorner
the more I have reflected on this the more I have concluded that I agree with @Kanaloa and some others that this is a commercial decision by they nursery, at the expense of my DS. I’m disappointed, but have to try to see it an as opportunity to find a better solution- even though I don’t know what that is yet, and I don’t know where I will find the time to find this solution.

Yes, he bites. But he isn’t uncontrollable. he’s not running around nursery like Pac-Man! He doesn’t bite every day even.

I’ve read about other children who are asked to leave nursery this weekend and the stories are horrifying. Behavior that would really frighten me it’s so much more extreme than anything I have seen in children I know. I’d wonder what had befallen than child to cause that reaction. This is not even remotely true of DS and in this light asking him to leave seems like a failure from the nursery.

@EYProvider i have similar concerns about a childminder setting.

in addition I’ve seen childminders with kids in the local park and playgroups to us and they seem very uninterested in their charges. Really didn’t fill me with confidence.

The lack of other adults and lack of group accountability has always worried me about childminders- probably totally unfairly.

I am interested to know how people assessed childminders and found those they thought were good fits for their family? I have no experience here.

@singingirl thank you this is really encouraging. I’m resolved that this will have to be the way I view this situation. A blessing in disguise that will turn out to be for the best for him.
There are a few things in the toddler room that I’m not wild about anyway, and the opportunity to change to a new setting without the guilt of having pulled him out to suit me better is probably going to be a good thing.

@AthenaPopodopolous
i don’t disagree with you entirely.
But I really must take issue with the insinuation that he is suffering from neglect of a kind.

It’s not easy. I struggle every day with my decision to continue to work after the birth of my son. But realistically I know I would be extraordinarily unhappy as a full time SAHM - and therefore not good at mothering him!

I work in something that’s hugely important to me, and that I’m good at, and that brings value to other people too. But as I’ve said upthread, I’m the primary earner, bringing in over 2/3rd of our household income. My career will continue to finance my DSs life as he grows up. I can’t apologise for it.
i have made a decision to go back to a 4 day week though - driven by a feeling of overwhelm and guilt at not seeing him enough.

In addition we’ve always been very focussed on reading to him, and spending quality time with him. I work from home most days at the moment which affords me nearly 2 hours before he leaves for nursery and nearly 2 hours when he gets him from
nursery each day to play with and read to him. I’ve always tried very hard to make him the focus of my attention when I’m with him. He is read to every day, at least on 3 occasions (breakfast, supper and at bedtime, multiple books each time) he knows a number of books of by heart. He is starting to learn a second language (we attend a class together), and can now respond to questions in that language with the appropriate answers in English. He sings in both English and the language he is learning.

He is a much doted on PFB by my own admission.

I try my absolute hardest to parent in a “gentle” style (i read the books and blogs and use the language and style etc) I don’t always get it right.
I’m choosing to use additional childcare so that I may continue my career and financially supporting my family, I am not neglecting my child.

I am possibly neglecting myself, but I can’t agree that I’m neglecting my child.

@LargeLegoHaul thank you for taking the time to share all this information. I will investigate it all for our local area.

OP, I think you are being a bit unfair to the nursery here (it’s not my nursery, btw!). They have provided 1-1 support at great expense to themselves (and their profit margins will be tiny - nurseries do not make huge profits, despite what you read on here) and no doubt they have had to deal with a load of angry parents whose kids have been bitten. It’s wrong to blame the nursery; they could just as easily blame your parenting, but that would be wrong also. For some kids, biting is a developmental stage.

In the absence of other issues, I think you are highly highly unlikely to get the LA to agree to carry out the EHCP assessment. The fact that your child has good communication skills suggests to me that he is probably biting to get attention or even just to be naughty. This might be because he is in the wrong setting, the wrong room within the setting, or even (perish the thought) that he does need a bit of a firm hand to be taught to stop. Does he bite at home?

@Threeboysandadog thank you for this. I agree it’s worth an assessment, and who knows what may come of it. I am not scared of any particular outcome of an assessment (nor certain that there would be an outcome actually), not for his future, but it does help to read that biting isn’t so far outside of the norm at this age!
I’ve comforted myself that he’s not running around like Pac-Man at nursery!

@MrsPelligrinoPetrichor thank you so much for this message ❤
I think a lot of the initial despair I felt was because I was catastrophising. I suffer from depression and anxiety, and get gloomy quickly.
This thread has helped me feel more positive and begin to make plans

My younger DD is also a biter, although she does do it out of anger/ frustration/ excitement. She also has very good speech for her age (2).

She has gone to a childminder since she turned 1. She went through a phase of biting one other girl there. I was mortified. Thankfully the girl's mother was very good about it and didn't make me feel bad about. I got her the book "teeth are not for biting" and she took this to CMs for them all to read together. She does still bite, but only her sister and sometimes me. I'm at my wits end over it tbh, I don't know how to get her to stop.

Anyway, I think the CM has been great for her. My older DD went to a nursery and I don't think it suited her. She is quite strong willed too and I think they found her a challenge, but she is also very anxious and I just don't think it was rhe right setting.

The CM has been great for DD2. It's the same person everyday, and they have a real bond (this does make me a bit jealous but I do think it's better for her). CM lives v nearby and has a lot of experience. She acknowledges that DD2 can be challenging but she's v firm and good at handling her.

Good luck. I'm sorry this has happened, I would feel very upset if this has happened to either of mine. Hopefully you will find the right setting for him.

@EYProvider
yes, fair enough.

To clarify the nursery haven’t paid for any 1-on-1 support for him, they have instead asked room staff to keep a special eye on him (no eating in to their profit margin) But I wouldn’t expect them to buy in any 1-on -1 at their own expense. I think they have tried all the usual (ABC charts, chew toys, teeth are not for biting book & mantra, planned ignoring, firm
words etc.) and have found that after all that there’s a residual biting behaviour that they don’t know how to control as it appears to be unbidden - its not consistent, but it’s not infrequent. Only theories they now have are noise sensitivity, boredom, overtired. All possible. Certainly possible that he’s in the wrong room in the wrong setting. It’s an open plan nursery with different discrete areas. It is noisy.

is he biting to be naughty? I’m not sure he knows the concept. For more individual attention? That’s certainly possible. Perhaps these are the same thing.

I’m absolutely not blaming nursery for causing his biting - this isn’t what I meant and I should have been more clear. I did mean that the way they handled this, and particularly related communications with us as parents culminating in the decision that we should remove him, wasn’t great. Truly I’ve been really a huge fan of the nursery, and I respect their decision, but think that with alternative handling, an alternative outcome might have been possible- but then it doesn’t do well to dwell on universes that don’t exist.

A firm hand? We use ago appropriate negative consequences for undesirable behaviour including biting beyond planned ignoring.
but the issue at nursery is that they don’t see angry biting etc anymore. They see biting that appears at random and unbidden. He apparently no longer looks for a reaction.

Is my parenting to blame for his biting though? Who knows, maybe. my parenting (including my childcare choices for him) or my genetics are a part of it no matter which way you direct this issue.

I agree with you re the ECHP likelihood, but figure other than some time from us as his parents what harm could it do to try? As I’ve mentioned upthread there are a few other bits that could be part of something (toe walking, a bit of verbal stimming, very high anxiety, family history of ASD and ADHD, poor sleep). None of these things (bar the family history) are outside of the range of normal in and of themselves, but together? I don’t know because I’m not a specialist.
It could very well be nothing- just one of those things etc. or it could be something.
I have no idea, but feel it can’t hurt to ask

@MsClavel (top name)
thank you for this very kind message!
how did you find your childminder and what did you look for when making your choice?

@MsClavel also yes we have the book teeth are not for biting. Not a magic bullet but definitely helped reduce the behaviour.

@CallmeMrsPricklepants Interesting - I hadn’t thought about this, but could be.
The decision has been made now so I don’t know that it’s worth suggesting new triggers at this stage. Something to think about if it happens post a move to a new setting.