Nursery asked us to remove our 2 year old - need success stories

[LazJaz]

This is long, thank you in advance for reading.

Our DS 26months has been in nursery since 11.5months
Towards the end of his time in the baby room, he began to exhibit difficulties in controlling his emotions and was biting other children.
He was moved to the toddler room about 6 weeks ago. Seemed to do really well at first and biting behavior stopped, however over the past few weeks the behavior has come back, and ramped up to the extent that nursery had a shadow on him, suggested he may have ADHD, requested a referral for an assessment (which was rejected by the local authority because they need referrals from SALT at the moment) and finally despite some improvements (better communication, naming feelings, several days with no biting attempts,) they now feel that they can no longer sustain the level of support he needs and they have suggested it’s not the right setting for him. They have given us one month’s notice and have been very supportive throughout his time at nursery.

They believe that the behavior is possibly the result of sensory processing disorder as he is not biting in anger but now biting seemingly unprovoked by other children and is uninterested in the response of the bitten child or surrounding adults. They are puzzled as he’s a bright child with excellent speech for his age, and they don’t feel that the biting behavior fits with the rest of his presentation.

They expressed this as a “with regret” decision, they say he’s charming, smart, and much loved but that the current situation is unsustainable for all parties.

I agree with and support their decision. They need to keep other children safe, and perhaps the biting is a sign of DS having needs they can’t meet.

But it’s devastating. He seems to enjoy his time at nursery (he talks about it at home positively and runs in on drop off). I’m also terrified for him - what will a change in setting do to his confidence? (we’re considering a range of options but nanny would probably be a stretch too far) ,what if we get it wrong again?

And I’m also scared and sad and angry for me. Even though I know this is inappropriate.

we’ve started aggressively pursuing appointments with SALT, gp, sensory specialists etc, anyone who will listen. We’re exploring new childcare options.

I’m looking for advice/guidance/wisdom/success stories - has this happened to anyone else? Did you go on to better things? What till did it take on your child? Were they able to go on to another setting with more success and without being labeled? If relevant, What toll did it take on your career? I’m the primary earner and so giving up work to focus on him isn’t a possibility for us without significant life changes (selling house, moving to new part of country etc). DH is brilliant but also at this point not interested in stopping work to become and SAAD.

thank you for reading and anything you may be able to share.

@Savemysoul21

wtf?

😂

Where do they find these people? Have you tried knocking him over the head with a stick? Maybe that will sort it.

Parents always say the nursery is great for stimulation. But for some children, it is too much stimulation. Some adults hate working in an open-plan office because there is too much noise and movement.
It might not be this, but it would be worth trying a childminder with just a few children to see if this is the issue.
It can be a sign of special needs, buy can also just be personality type.

Yes but I would be very surprised if a NHS SALT would support a 26 month old who has good language skills with play skills etc. In this area if a 2 year old was saying more than 10 words you probably won't get seen.

My nephew bit so often at nursery that he was known as “Jaws”. Fortunately, it was a very small nursery and they were able to meet his needs so he stayed there. He is now a perfectly respectful and respected young man. He doesn’t have any special needs and has completely outgrown his biting. It’s certainly worth an assessment though.

Really want to thank everyone for taking the time to reply. The varied responses and experience sharing has been so helpful to my emotional response to this event.
I really felt a huge sense of sadness and despair when I wrote - I’d spent 24 hours crying, mainly because it felt like DS and I were being judged and found wanting, and that no one would want him in their setting of any kind. Now I feel i’m not alone and more importantly I have a sense of possibility opening up ahead of us. It’s mine and DH’s job to make the most of this moment and support DS in whatever way he may need.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

And also I’ve learned so much that I didn’t know before!
wise Mumsnetters!

Did you appeal the LA’s EHCP refusal? The majority of appeals are upheld, and rejecting the EHCNA request because DS hasn’t been assessed by SALT yet is unlawful - a SALT assessment can be part of the EHCNA.

Have the nursery asked the Area SENCO for advice? And, in some areas nurseries can apply for early years inclusion funding for 2 year olds, although in others in is from 3.

My son had a biting phase (later diagnosed ADHD and Sensory Processing Difficulties). He stopped after a bit (nothing made much of difference in that time, he just stopped of his own accord). If they think he has additional needs really nursery should be doing more not kicking him out. You need to get everything they have observed and said in writing and then apply for an EHCP so he can get the support he needs. Ideally you want it in place before he starts school unless you plan to home educate. Better to use this nursery experience as a way to get more support going forward.

My friends little girl went through this and was kicked out of nursery. She thrived in a smaller less bright and noisey nursery. Her first setting was busy with lots of bright plastic toys and bright lights. Second setting was more 'hyggae', wooden toys, soft lighting, less kids. They came to the conclusion she was over stimulated in the first nursery. She doesnt have adhd or any additional needs.

Thank you @windowout
we definitely plan to draw on all of the nursery’s observations and get assessments started now. They are supportive and helping us by signposting and filling out observations forms etc

Thank you @LargeLegoHaul i wasn’t aware of this and I will investigate this tomorrow. Do you have any information you can sign post about the legal element of refusing a referral without SALT?

Re EHCPs the best advice is found on the IPSEA website. Lots of LAs lie about what is required when applying for an EHC needs assessment. You can apply yourself and as part of the needs assessment you should get a SALT and OT assessment as well as Ed psych. You have sufficient evidence from nursery (as long as it's in writing) to get an assessment but some LAs will make you appeal anyway. 95% of parents win the appeal so worth doing to get the assessments.

This IPSEA page sets out the legal test for an EHCNA - a) has or may have SEN, and b) may need SEN provision to be made via an EHCP. Any other test or hoop (e.g. 2 plus years behind, must have spent £6k, 2 assess/plan/do/review cycles and in your case a SALT assessment) the LA would like you to jump through is unlawful.

This is a copy of an IPSEA presentation that explicitly states LA’s who won’t assess because there isn’t an EP report are acting unlawfully. The same applies for a SALT report rather than EP.

Are you sure the nursery is any good? I used to inspect private nurseries and was amazed at how awful some were - even the allegedly outstanding ones.

I agree with pp re nursery quality. We sent dd where we thought was amazing. It was only once she was talking that we established the reality. They'd say she had fish and potatoes - it was fish fingers and chips. Access to outdoors all day was probably an hour a day.
OP I'm not saying that your nursery is like this, but keep an open mind when looking around new settings.
We found a nursery for ds that didn't look as fancy but he was really happy there and thrived in every way.

I've been thinking about this thread this evening, even 25 years ago it was a huge no no to talk to parents about medical diagnosis that you were suspicious about, this alone suggests to me the nursery may not be all it's cracked up to be. Also, I wonder if a staff member was actually shadowing him on a proper 1:1 basis ( I'd be surprised due to staffing levels/costs) or just keeping a bit of an eye from afar?

Anyway, my point is don't despair, he's only 2 and it sounds like you want to do everything you can to help him be happy and settled.

The nursery should be able to handle this properly so I tend to agree with this.

OP I’m sorry to hear this. You sound like an amazing mum! Tbh I don’t get people saying nurseries can’t diagnose - of course they can’t formally diagnose but they see hundreds of children and have a wealth of experience and if they are concerned then it’s worth thinking about. Also given the other things you mentioned and the family history. I have a friend who continued to keep her head in the sand for years and as a result, when her daughter was finally diagnosed ASD so much time had gone by without the help she needed that her mental health has really been affected. Fortunately it sounds like you have positive examples of living with ASD in your family, and if that does turn out to be what is going on here then your son will have the best possible experience with you as his mum. There is always hope and our differences only make us more interesting.

Requesting an EHCP for a just two year old who bites whose entire life has happened during lockdowns and covid is not your first priority and will likely lead to huge frustration for you as things get turned down for lack of evidence. It's not the right thing to pursue at this point.

ADHD isn't assessed in most areas before age 6, because toddlers are impulsive with short attention spans.

He might turn out to be on the spectrum or have ADHD but for now you need to visit your local sendiass service and see if your area has a preschool advisory teacher service. You might also want to speak to your health visitor and seek a referral to the community peadiatrician. They will then coordinate on referrals such as for autism assessment if that is deemed necessary when they meet your child.

In the meantime lots of playgroups with you or a calm experienced childminder would be useful. Many many young children, especially eldest children, are presenting with delayed social, language and interaction skills because - through nobody's fault - they haven't been able to mix with other children and develop those skills as previous generations of toddlers could. Please don't dismiss the potential covid impact. Any nursery teacher with a few years experience will tell you, this is not a minor thing - the covid babies have been significantly impacted. They will catch up, of course, but it means we have to be particularly careful to allow children, esp only or eldest children born during covid, to have some genuine catch up time.

Experienced prof in SEN field.

Tbh I don’t get people saying nurseries can’t diagnose - of course they can’t formally diagnose but they see hundreds of children and have a wealth of experience and if they are concerned then it’s worth thinking about.

It’s just not considered appropriate or best practice. You might say you have concerns/recommend a referral but I’ve never worked in a nursery where it’s appropriate to tell a parent that you think their two year old has ADHD (which most professionals won’t even diagnose in a baby unit age child) because he bites people. It’s just not normal practice in my experience. Yes, we might be able to compare the child to others and recognise that they’re not meeting development expectations, but no we’re not qualified to diagnose, and it’s not our place to speculate. The same way we might have seen hundreds of kids with a fever and rash but we still send your child home and say ‘go to the doctor’ instead of ‘don’t worry it’s just a virus, we would know if it was anything else.’

It is not just requesting an EHCNA for a 2yo who bites this is requesting an EHCNA for a child whose behaviour is so far outside the norm they are effectively being excluded from nursery. That is evidence they have or may have SEN and may need an SEP to be made via an EHCP. Yes, it may be refused but so are many (over 95% of appeals are upheld) who go on to successfully appeal.

Is it a private nursery? My friends son (autism but awaiting official diagnosis) goes to a council run preschool, which wouldn't be available to your son now but might be in a year or so. They are very good at helping him to manage his emotions, biting, pushing etc, and he has a 1:1. I think the private ones just think 'too much work' and undoubtedly they have a waiting list so can do that. The council run ones or even church based ones may not offer as long a session but seem to have a lot of ex teachers working there IME.
Good luck OP. FWIW I always knew a bit with my DD that she felt things differently to others and that she reacted differently. Even when she was displaying behaviour which was pretty normal for her age group, it just never subsided and she still has meltdowns now at 7 about sensory stuff. It's bullshit that they can diagnose ADHD at his age though. It was only brought up when my dd was 6, although the autism predated that.

There is a reason why most interventions for preschoolers - portage, More than Words, assessment nursery, speech therapy etc - don't require an EHCP. This child isn't due to start school nursery until September 2024. Yes parents need to pursue support - via health visitor, community pead, speech therapy - but it's NOT the right time to start getting an EHCNA.
As an EP if I were assigned this case I would be recommending time in a supportive childcare setting with comm pead overview and possibly referral for autism assessment, then a watch and wait whilst being monitored by area senco. All of which is achievable without an EHCP.

It's impossible to say what support he may or may not need in 2025 when he becomes of statutory school age at this point, given covid and the severe impact it has had on toddlers' emotional and social development. As I say in another thread, we have had a quadrupling of referrals in this age group for possible autism. It's not possible that 4x as many kids are now autistic. The signs are dysregulation, poor social interaction skills, delayed sharing skills.

I am NOT saying this child will never need an EHCP. I don't know. I do know that spending a year fighting for one now is expending efforts in the wrong direction right now.