Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Mumsnet webchats

WEBCHAT GUIDELINES: 1. One question per member plus one follow-up. 2. Keep your question brief. 3. Don't moan if your question doesn't get answered. 4. Do be civil/polite. 5. If one topic or question threatens to overwhelm the webchat, MNHQ will usually ask for people to stop repeating the same question or point.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Webchat with Professor George Haycock, FSID scientific adviser, Tues 30 June, 1-2pm

292 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 25/06/2009 10:40

A little while ago, following new expert advice about co-sleeping and cot death, some of you asked if we could get someone on from the Foundation for the Study of Infant Deaths (FSID).

FSID scientific adviser Professor George Haycock has kindly agreed to come on to discuss the advice, so he'll be in Mumsnet Towers next Tuesday lunchtime at 1pm .

Please post your advance questions here. Obviously he may not be able to answer all of them, but we'll make sure he sees them.

Thanks
MNHQ

OP posts:
GeraldineMumsnet · 30/06/2009 12:50

Hi, Professor Haycock is here in the Towers and just working through more of your questions.

He'll be online in about 10 mins.

OP posts:
neenztwinz · 30/06/2009 12:52

Why does baby sleeping in another room increases the risk of SIDS? Is it because you are more likely to notice that the baby has stopped breathing if it is in a moses basket in your room? Or is it something to do with your own breathing regulating the baby's breathing?

What do you think of baby monitors that montior the baby's breathing and sound an alarm if the sensor does not sense movement? Do they reduce the risk? If a baby stops breathing in its sleep, can they be revived if the parent knows in time?

0.4 in every 100,000 babies die of SIDS. What number of bed-sharing babies die of SIDS and can we really know what percentage if we don't really know how many bed-share?

gardeningmum05 · 30/06/2009 12:56

if you lose a baby to sids, you get the option of the baby monitors for any further siblings. it does detect if a baby stops breathing and gives the parents tremendous relief. if we had not had them then we would never have slept.
the alarm went off about 10 times with each of our sons,believe me, you can get up stairs in 3 leaps when it does

GeorgeHaycock · 30/06/2009 12:59

Hello everybody. I am now in the the studio and pretty well ready to deal with your questions and comments.

tiktok · 30/06/2009 13:01

Yep - GreenMonkies, the raw percentages don't tell us anything.

My understanding is that SIDS versus suffocation is difficult to distinguish at post-mortem.

A baby who dies because he has had his face trapped between bed and wall is not a 'cot death' or 'SIDS' but it's death from suffocation.

The same goes for babies who suffocate because of getting trapped in a cot, or because they were strangled by a cord from their clothing. Not SIDS. In some studies, all these are lumped together.

It can be a nightmare understanding stats from different countries, not all of whom define or differentiate in the same way, or control for the same variables.

For example, the baby who dies alone in an adult size bed may appear to have died from SIDS - but would he have died if he had been fully 'co-sleeping' with an adult there to be aware of (for instance) a change in breathing?

All babies should sleep in baby-safe environments - that probably includes not even being in a house where adults smoke, let alone a room or a bed, and it probably includes being breastfed, too. But these adult behaviours are very, very difficult to change, for all sorts of reasons.

tiktok · 30/06/2009 13:02

Whoops, sorry, prof George, was replying to other post. Glad you are here!

Am I right that SIDS stats are sometimes hard to interpret?

lisalisa · 30/06/2009 13:02

Peppa pig - that must have been terrifying!!!

I think many of us can put hand on heart and say we are lucky. I also read some of these falling asleep while nursing over baby posts and nodded my head - I had done that as well.

I think its just very bad luck if a baby dies whilst sleepoing -whether due to sids or due to falling down a gap/having ended up under kingsize duvet/being squashed by exhausted mother - it matters not.

it just seems to me that the risks in co-sleepoing - on a common sense basis - must place it higher than if baby sleeps alone but next to mother in room.

just a few things I can think of in co-sleepoing - duvets overheating ( however hard we try to keep duvets off baby we are tired and mistakes happen)/squashing baby - again we are tired and especially with new baby we are SO tired and they are so very little. I just think big bed/big blankets/deep sleep/tired parents and add new tiny baby - doesn't sounds like good sense to me.

littleminsky · 30/06/2009 13:03

I agree with you GreenMonkies. The figures are conflicting!

My LO slept in a moses basket on his back but he had terrible reflux and would wake himself up every hour with cold vomit. The only way he would sleep well was on me and then later on his belly! I don't think I got a proper night sleep for 3 months worrying about SIDs. Not sure why sleeping on his belly helped but he didn't vomit. Not sure if by sleeping that way it helped block off the lower esophageal sphincter.

I don't know what to think about co-sleeping. I did try to do it the "correct" way but ended up being dictated by DS. With my next chld I will do the exact same thing - let them sleep on their own but if they won't settle then I will phave to co-sleep.

My gran had 6 kids which she co-slept. It was the norm for everyone in the Far East to do that and SIDs is not really heard of over there.

GeorgeHaycock · 30/06/2009 13:05

Before I start dealing with new enquiries, here are some responses to questions and comments that were already received here:

Hello Upwind,

Study 1 did find risk for non-smoking mothers for infants below the age of 7-8 weeks. This is shown in Figure 1 from that paper, which shows that the lower 95% confidence interval for non-smokers is above the unity risk line below that age. This is not referred to in the abstract but the principal author, Professor Bob Carpenter, has re-analysed the data and now says that it is significant up to 16 weeks. I am now in the studio so do not have the paper in front of me but if you get hold of it you will find it is so. Bob's re-analysis is published in a less well known journal which I did not include in my paper because it is not easily available. Incidentally, he no longer supports the conclusion with which you conclude your comment (which is unfortunate, I agree)

As I wrote in my summary document, references 4 and 6 found a non-significant trend towards risk for non-smoking mothers (OR 1.3 and 1,35 respectively) but all the others were significant, especially for the younger infants. As far as I know nobody has yet conducted a formal meta-analyis of these studies but it would inevitably come out with a significant summary odds ratio.

Hello Poface,

Although I am as strong a supporter of breast feeding as anyone, it is actually an exaggeration to say that breast feeding has 'a huge effect on infant mortality' in developed countries. It has an effect but nowhere near as great as that in developing countries where infection, especially gastroenteritis, is the leading cause of infant mortality (not long ago the WHO estimated that 5 million infants die each year from this cause in the Indian subcontinent alone.

I am not aware that anyone has stated that bed sharing is always the worst option in all circumstances, and I would certainly never criticise anyone who found that it was the only way to cope, as you seem to have done. As I and others have repeatedly said, for low risk parents (especially non-smokers) the risk of bed sharing is very low, but I cannot state in view of the published evidence that it is zero.

There is research focussing (although not solely) on bed sharing safety for breast fed babies. The German study previously referred to found no interaction between breast feeding and bedsharing: the risk was increased but from a vanishingly small level to a low level.

Dear peppapighastakenoverm.

The careful meta-analysis conducted by Fern Hauck and her associates (O'Connor et al, reference somewhere above!) showed no evidence at all of a negative effect of dummy use on breast feeding exclusivity or duration in any of the four controlled trials in the published literature. The claim that there is such a (negative) association is based solely on observational studies, which by their nature cannot demonstrate causation and which inevitably (albeit unconsciously) subject to bias. The protective effect of dummy use is therefore applicable equally to breast and bottle fed infants. It is not possible to give an odds ration for the specific situation you describe because no studies have been done which addressed that question.

Dear JimmyMcNulty,

An excellent question! Research has shown that most dummies do indeed fall out within the first half hour of a sleep period but, strangely or not, the protective effect seems to remain. This reflects, I think, the fact that we really have no idea of how or why dummies are protective. Incidentally, the same is true of the most important intervention yet devised, that of sleeping babies on their backs. We really don't know why this is effective but the evidence is overwhelming that it is.

Dear ReallyTired,

Not as simple a question as it might appear. It is more common overall, but subsequent babies born in a family where one such death has occurred are at greater risk than those born in a famlly without this history.

Dear Leningrad,

No, it isn't safer to have the baby in the bed. The explanation is that more babies sleep in cots than bed share, and the risk as a total of all babies is higher for bed sharers than for babies sleeping in a separate cot in the parents' bedroom (the last part is important: more than one study has shown that the risk for babies in the first few months who sleep in a separate room is double that for those in a cot in the parents' room).

gardeningmum05 · 30/06/2009 13:06

professor
are their any statistics or records of sids victims siblings going on to have children and their children dying of sids?

AnarchyAunt · 30/06/2009 13:07

Are there figures available that show the proportion of all bedsharing babies that die of SIDS and the proportion of all lone sleeping babies that die of SIDS?

That seems to be the crucial question.

littleminsky · 30/06/2009 13:08

To Professor Haycock,

I would like to know the vaccine status of sids cases - co sleeping or not.

Thanks

GeorgeHaycock · 30/06/2009 13:10

Dear Gardeningmum,

Good question. The short answer is no, but there is a subgroup of babies who were initially diagnosed as SIDS but who turned out on subsequent investigation to have rare genetic conditions (usually very rare). This subgroup my be at increased risk of familial occurrence of infant death but they would no longer be classified as SIDS.

treedelivery · 30/06/2009 13:12

Hello Prof

I'm interested in the issue of 'ill' babies and the SIDS risk. What happens to the risk, and when is an 'under the weather' baby at increased risk of SIDS?

GeorgeHaycock · 30/06/2009 13:12

Dear Littlemimsky,

Careful studies by the German SIDS study group (lead investigator Mechtild Vennemann) have shown that immunised infants are less likely than non-immunised ones to die of SIDS.

gardeningmum05 · 30/06/2009 13:13

what about a link to stillborn?
my mother in law had 2 still borns, could there be something generic my husband is carrying could possibly link to my daughters sids?

littleminsky · 30/06/2009 13:17

Hi Prof,

That is really interesting. Do you have the figures of vaccinated babies dying of SIDS and non vaccinated babies dying of SIDS or where I could find it.

I have been reading a book called "DPT- Ashot in the Dark" which may suggest a link between the Pertussis vaccine and SIDS. I think there was a peak in deaths 2 days after getting the vaccine so I didn't know if any further studies have been carried out about it.

neenztwinz · 30/06/2009 13:18

Do you have an opinion about monitors that sense baby's breathing?

GeorgeHaycock · 30/06/2009 13:18

Dear Treedelivery,

There are two studies addressing this question in the 'post-back sleeping' era. One is by the German SIDS group (I seem to be quoting them a lot!), which did not find any increased risk for babies with symptoms of minor illness, and another from the University of Leicester (lead investigator Michael Wailoo) which found a small risk. Why this should be so is speculative, but there is a considerable body of evidence that infection and inflammation may play a role in the causation of at least some cases of SIDS. To find these papers Google 'Pubmed', and put eiher 'vennemann mm' or 'wailoo m' into the entry box and the studied should come up. In most cases you will be able to access the abstracts directly via Pubmed, but not the full text.

LeninGrad · 30/06/2009 13:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

growingup · 30/06/2009 13:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

funnypeculiar · 30/06/2009 13:28

Have only just ccome on, and can see i need to go and do some homework - can I just say a big thank you to Prof Haydock for doing so much in advance and providing nice detailed references

One question - when FSIDS are designing guidelines, do you think beyond the 'pure' SIDS issue (eg impact on breastfeeding etc) or do you feel that weighing up additional factors are a parental decision?

ShowOfHands · 30/06/2009 13:31

Can I just say thank you and well done to the Professor. I have been anticipating this discussion since it was announced and am pleased to see such thorough and direct answers thus far. Yes, would that all other guests were as diligent.

Most of my questions as a cosleeping since birth mother have been answered.

As you were.

GreenMonkies · 30/06/2009 13:34

Seeing as my questions are invisable I'll try again;

I have a much simpler question;

Why don't you consult with and take advice from Helen Ball instead of MAM??

peppapighastakenovermylife · 30/06/2009 13:34

Yes thank you Professor - very clear and specific responses. I bet you never envisaged yourself writing sentences such as

'Dear Peppapig', 'Dear Treedelivery' etc!

I would be very interested in potential future findings examining dummy use and sids where breastfeeding duration is controlled for.