Webchat with Professor George Haycock, FSID scientific adviser, Tues 30 June, 1-2pm

[GeraldineMumsnet]

A little while ago, following new expert advice about co-sleeping and cot death, some of you asked if we could get someone on from the Foundation for the Study of Infant Deaths (FSID).

FSID scientific adviser Professor George Haycock has kindly agreed to come on to discuss the advice, so he'll be in Mumsnet Towers next Tuesday lunchtime at 1pm .

Please post your advance questions here. Obviously he may not be able to answer all of them, but we'll make sure he sees them.

Thanks
MNHQ

Leningrad, I don't think any conclusion can be drawn from those figures without knowing the population size for each group.

What I still don't know is what % of all badsharing babies die of SIDS, compared to the % of all lone sleeping babies.

bad bed sharing

badsharing baby = a baby who sleeps spreadeagled in the middle of the bed with each parent on either side?

that'd be mine, yep.

You must know that breastfeeding has a significant effect on child health and mortality, no? Are you aware that WHO recommends children to be breastfed exclusively for the first 6 months and thereafter for at least 2 years?

i have a question but its not about co sleeping can i ask it?

i know the odds of sids go down at a year old,which is when you stop using the monitor, what are the satistics in the following years?
after losing our daughter to sids i am still terrified of losing one of the other children even though they are 1,2,9 and 11.

Thank you for your response.

I've just had a quick look at USA Agency Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality report no. 153, which you say provides the best evidence that breast feeding modestly reduces the risk of SIDS (OR of about 0.64).

They conducted their own meta-analysis, using data on "ever versus never breastfeeding". Given that a large proportion of mothers in the developed world give up breastfeeding in the first few weeks, do you feel that potentially underestimates the association between formula feeding and SIDS? Many of the mothers who have ever breastfed, will have ceased to do so by the time their babies are at an age where they are at increased risk of SIDS.

Think so, Lenin.

at all those bad sharing babies

Incidentally, does anyone one mn use co-sleeping to mean anything other than bed-sharing? I hadn't heard of the confusion before.

And a q for Prof Haycock - often on threads, we see people bringing up their experiences of living in Asian cultures where, it's said, cosleeping bed-sharing is the norm and SIDS is unheard of. This is my own experience too, though obviously it's anecdotal. The studies you cite seem to be western (European/ N. American). Is there research available in English that refers to the Asian experience, are there other mitigating factors not present in the west? Should we not be comparing across cultures, or is this anecdotal evidence not backed up by evidence?

That's actually about 4 questions, isn't it? Sorry. And I'm going to miss the chat, so if anyone else is interested, please repeat for me!

"anecdotal evidence not backed up by evidence"??

You know what I mean, right?

Yep, in rural Thailand, for example, I don't know anyone who hasn't co-slept - actually my sil had a c-section and was very unwell, so baby co-slept with grandma for a while, that's how normal it is (Which meant that they both got up every night feed, for grandma to take baby to mother, which I thought was a bit mad, but still). No Dr I've spoken to knows what I'm talking about re: SIDS. However, we all use cellular blankets (so separate for each person) and sleep on futon-type things.

If as you say, breastfeeding reduces the risk of SIDS 'modestly' can you back up your claim with research?

Does the FSIDS have any longterm (or short term) goal of sponsoring a study which looks at the connections between breastfeeding and sleep/cot death?

I had a look at the PDF that you designed on the FSIDS website.

The leaflet states that a dummy should not be introduced in the first month after breastfeeding has been established. It seems to assume that breastfeeding will be established by then and gives no guidance that it may not be established and that therefore giving a dummy may still be a bad idea.

Is there any plan to give parents further guidance on the leaflet on how to assess if breastfeeding is established or give information on who or which organisations to contact if there are any concerns with establishing breastfeeding?

I co slept with my ds aged about 2 months. My side of the bed was next to a wall. There was a tiny gap next to the wall. I woke up one night and felt a space where he had been and looked down the gap. He had fallen down the gap between the wall and the bed and was wedged there face down.I don't think I've ever gained full consciousness so fast _ i literally screamed dh awake " Move hte fucking bed NOW!" and he leapt out of bed and moved the bed and I caught ds. Thankfully he was ok but I don't know how long he'd been in that position. Thankfully he'd been wedged with his face clear of obstructions - i.e. he did not reach the carpeted floor and get wedged else he may have suffocated but was wedged face down as if he'd been shoved there.

I still have no understanding as to how he could have fallen down such a gap although dh thinks he may have moved the bed slightly when getting in .

Ds had quite a checkered childhood re illnesses and scrapes generally but this one stands out in my bed as utterly terrifying.

I would not say it made me join the anti co sleeping camp but I did not co sleep after that. I made use of the moses basket right next to my bed. I slept with my arm over the basket or just touching ds and still felt he was right next to me but safer in his own space that he could not leave unless I physically removed him from it.

Dear gardeningmum05, that's awful that you lost you baby to SIDs. I really feel for you. I agree that no one knows the real cause of it so please don't blame yourself. I have heard of plenty of babies found in their cot from SIDs - so sad.

Just a quick question which I hope you don't mind me asking, was your baby recently vaccinated at the time. I have just been reading the book "DPT a shot in the dark" and it has statistics showing a high level of babies having SIDS after 2 days of getting their DPT shot.

But LisaLisa that isnt safe cosleeping - it states on the safer co sleeping advice that there should be no gaps around the bed.

Sorry - I am not being critical and am sure many would have made the mistake in not realising the size of the gap (or possible gap if moved).

As an unrelated point I had my scary moment when DS wasnt in bed with me. I had put him in the moses basket next to the bed and somehow in the night I kicked off the duvet (hot summer) and kicked it straight over him. I woke up to find him under a kingsize duvet. He was fine thankfully but it shows there are risks anywhere the baby sleeps.

I would like to ask the following.

If we do not have accurate national figures on how all our babies sleep...how can we say cot sleeping versus bed sharing is safer ?

littleminsky, no she hadnt been vaccinated, she was only 13 days old.

as for the blame issue, we helped set up a help group for other parents that have been through it since, and i have met parents whose babies died in their cots, and they feel guilty because they died alone. i guess you will find blame and guilt from anywhere,somewhere, when something so tragic happens

By LeninGrad on Tue 30-Jun-09 11:25:35
"50% of deaths occurred in infants sleeping alone in cots, 39% in the parental bed and 11% were sofa sharing."

If I understand this correctly, it is 'safer' to have the baby in bed isn't it?

For me, these figures speak for themselves, if less that 40% of babies who succumb to SIDS are in the parental bed, then this means that the remaining 60% were not in the parental bed. Which means more non-bed-sharing babies die from SIDS, which means a baby is more likely to die from SIDS if it is sleeping alone in a cot or on a sofa etc.

How can anyone interpret these figures to say that "co-sleeping"/bed-sharing increases the risk of SIDS?????

In parts of the world where babies sleep with their mothers (in slings etc during the day and in the bed during the night) and are breastfed through the night, and are not put in cots or alone in rooms, or subjected to "sleep training" to make them sleep unnaturally long, deep sleeps, and not fed formula, SIDS is essentially unheard of. It is only in the "West" where babies are fed formula, put into cots/rooms alone to sleep, and "encouraged" to sleep longer and deeper by being in automatic rocking swings and being left to "whinge" and "settle themselves" to sleep etc that we have a problem with SIDS. Surely this isn't a coincidence?

The human race has been bed-sharing for millions of years, and in most of the world still does. It is not shared sleep that is dangerous, it is separation and artificial feeding that increases the risks. Safe bed-sharing is exactly that, SAFE, a side-car cot, a king size bed, baby next to mum not between mum and dad, breastfeeding on demand throughout the night, these things are not risk factors, they are common sense and natural, and safe.

And one study stating that dummy use doesn't interfere with breastfeeding doesn't overturn the several that say it does. Dummies cause all kinds of problems, poor latch, reduced feeding, malocclusion, narrowed nasal airways and increase the risk of ear infections and obstructive sleep apnea. WHy would anyone recommend the use of a dummy to help a baby stay in a light enough sleep when a breastfed, bed-sharing baby gets this and more.

GreenMonkies - obviously not speaking on behalf of Prof. Haycock, but it depends on how many babies co-sleep. If you assume that bedsharing is rare and a disproportionate number of babies die when bedsharing, all else being equal, it may seem more dangerous.

But parents who bedshare seem to lie about it - as it is not seen as socially acceptable. And all else is never equal: alcohol consumption, smoking, use of narcotics clearly increase the risks of bedsharing. As study 4 that Prof. Haycock cited below concludes. there is "no evidence that bed sharing is hazardous for infants of parents who do not smoke."

Umm, why hasn't there been a reply to GreenMonkies?

I think Helen Ball's research is far more robust and trustworthy than something sponsored by a pacifier manufacturer.

That's not the case Greenmonkies, if a smaller proportion of all babies are in the parental bed to start with.