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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Webchat with Professor George Haycock, FSID scientific adviser, Tues 30 June, 1-2pm

292 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 25/06/2009 10:40

A little while ago, following new expert advice about co-sleeping and cot death, some of you asked if we could get someone on from the Foundation for the Study of Infant Deaths (FSID).

FSID scientific adviser Professor George Haycock has kindly agreed to come on to discuss the advice, so he'll be in Mumsnet Towers next Tuesday lunchtime at 1pm .

Please post your advance questions here. Obviously he may not be able to answer all of them, but we'll make sure he sees them.

Thanks
MNHQ

OP posts:
hunkermunker · 27/06/2009 20:53

If co-sleeping is not safe "full-stop" how are there children alive in most of the world?

Sorry, that does sound slightly facetious - but still, a vast number of babies sleep with their mothers/fathers/in a heap like mice and not in tastefully beige /primary-coloured bedding by themselves. And they survive - nay, thrive.

hunkermunker · 27/06/2009 20:54

And why don's FSIDS push their "formula-feeding increases the risk of cot death" research findings more? If it's so as not to make women who can't breastfeed feel guilty, I shall probably scream.

hanaflower · 28/06/2009 12:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

liath · 29/06/2009 08:07

What I would have found helpful in the baby days would have been some simple to understand statisitcs about comparable risks.

For example if, say, 100 000 babies sleep on their backs how many of them would be expected to have a cot death compare to 100 000 sleeping on their fronts. Or similar stats for a woman safely co-sleeping (ie non smoker, breast feeding etc etc) versus sleeping seperately.

Also, how much do certain actions increase the risk - if you smoke how much does that incease the risks of SIDS? What if you formula feed? Put baby down on their front to sleep? How do these increases compare to the increase in risk by co-sleeping?

I remember thinking when dd was very small that if I put her to sleep on her front that she would automatically die until my mum reminded me that me and my sisters all slept on our fronts as babies (and pointed out that perhaps I was getting a little hysterical). I spent the first few weeks petrified of SIDS and although I applaud the work done by FSIDs and totally appreciate that rates of SIDS have fallen because of the Back to Sleep campaign I wonder whether there is a tendancy now for women to worry excessively about something that is statistically very unlikely to happen (and sadly in most cases not preventable)? And in the ghastly occasions that a baby does die the assumption from the parents is often that they did something wrong and it's their fault - that it should have been preventable .

Thanks

BEAUTlFUL · 29/06/2009 13:41

Why aren't you safe to co-sleep if you smoke? I can understand the risks of drink and drugs (ie, falling too deeply asleep) but what's the danger of co-sleeping if you smoke cigarettes? The real, researched, scientific danger?

oneopinionatedmother · 29/06/2009 15:43

Had they considered making Formula Manafacturers place warnings on their product advising it increased the risk of infant death? And on the TV ads?

This might have more of a positive effect on general infant health than targeting unintentional co-sleeping which by its very nature parents can't avoid.

oneopinionatedmother · 29/06/2009 15:57

also, as baby sleeping in A SEPARATE ROOM IS KNOWN TO 'DOUBLE' the risk of SIDS, why not target that?

gingerninja · 29/06/2009 22:22

BEAUTIFUL I think it's to do with the smoker breathing out poisonous fumes after smoking.

BakewellTarts · 29/06/2009 22:34

Booking my place in the debate as I'm very interested in the answers to all of these q's.

I bf and cosleeping helped to keep me sane during DD2s first months. And believe me with her elder sister I needed all the sleep I could get. I suspect the stats are very skewed as I have not told any HV / MW that this is what we did. I did the research and made our decision with DH. I can't be the only one who chose this route...?

LupusinaLlamasuit · 29/06/2009 22:48

I can't be here tomorrow. MNHQ, will you be asking him to look at the advance questions?

LeninGrad · 29/06/2009 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GeraldineMumsnet · 30/06/2009 09:27

Morning.

So Prof Haycock is coming into the Towers later this morning. He has been looking through all your questions and will be answering as many as he can, but in the meantime has sent through this referenced contribution to provide some background.

If this is difficult to read and anyone would like me to email it to them, please email on [email protected]

MNHQ

FROM PROFESSOR HAYCOCK

This short contribution addresses some of the issues raised by various contributors, sometimes repeatedly, and I hope will be seen as helpful as a background to further discussion.

Some of your correspondents seem to think that the advice on bed sharing rests only on the recent figures from the north of England, referred to in the FSID press release. This is not the case.

There are currently at least 8 case control studies, (ie all of them compare infants who died of SIDS with a group of control infants who did not die, usually two, three or four control infants for each index case).

They also all control for other factors including parental smoking, socio-economic indices and in some cases breastfeeding as well.

These studies come from Ireland, Scotland, England, New Zealand, the USA, the Netherlands and Germany, as well as one which is a multinational European study from 20 regions in Europe. (1)

All of these are published in mainstream, peer reviewed journals and between them they include 2,616 SIDS cases and 9,296 control infants.

The references for these publications are given below and should be easily obtained by anyone with access to a University or Medical School library. (1-8)

In summary, all 8 of these found that bed sharing (as opposed to sofa sharing, which is a much higher risk) increased the risk of SIDS.

The difference was statistically significant in 6 of these studies; (1-3, 5, 7, 8) in the other two (4, 6) the risk did not reach conventional statistical significance (P

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 30/06/2009 09:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Upwind · 30/06/2009 10:01

BT - I was determined not to co-sleep at first but it was the only way that I could cope. Like you, I did not admit what I was doing to my health visitor. In fact, I lied to her about it and felt extremely guilty that I was putting my baby at some increased risk.

I wonder do FSID take into account the anxiety and difficulty they inflict on new parents with their guidance? If their advice is not based on strong evidence it may do more harm than good. As far as I know, the old guidance to put babies on their tummies to sleep was issued with the best of intentions and awful consequences.

madiba · 30/06/2009 10:07

Hi all, it's very interesting to read all your posts and questions. My heart goes out to everyone who has lost a child that way!

Q: I wonder how high is risk if co-sleeping with an older baby, 8.5 months? Is it any less dangerous? Thank you

Tambajam · 30/06/2009 10:40

Your comment on the use of dummies and breastfeeding has my jaw dropping. I'm sure you can appreciate because of the links with dummy manufacturers and the FSIDS organization many of us are rather skeptical on what you might have to say on this matter.
You fail to mention the conclusion of the study which states:
"The association between shortened duration of breastfeeding and pacifier use in observational studies likely reflects a number of other complex factors, such as breastfeeding difficulties or intent to wean. Ongoing quantitative and qualitative research is needed to better understand the relationship between pacifier use and breastfeeding."
Hardly the resounding final answer you imply it is.
And a significant portion of their data came from tubefeed hospitalized premature babies. A situation where dummy use has a very different role to play and is recognized in having a value in strengthened a very young baby's sucking skills. To then apply this finding to a full term newborn at home being fed to hunger cues is irresponsible.
I know this conversation is about co-sleeping but it's important people appreciate the study you describe as 'particularly strong' is described by the authors themselves as inconclusive.

Tambajam · 30/06/2009 10:51

On the 'advice to parents' section on the FSIDS website it is interesting to note 'breastfeed your baby' comes last on the list of advice. The advice to not co-sleep and the use of italics to emphasis when it is especially dangerous comes much higher up the list.
Don't feel brave enough for a 'it is especially dangerous not to breastfeed' which the statistics would support?

And the leaflet published 'Reduce the risk of cot death'
www.fsid.org.uk/editpics/404-1.pdf
doesn't even have a reference to breastfeeding on the front page in its key advice. Happy with that?

GeraldineMumsnet · 30/06/2009 10:54

Just had an email from Prof Haycock with answers to some of your advance questions.

He says that if he hasn't managed to answer your question, he will try to get to it during the chat.

(He may not have seen any subsequent comments you've made this morning, yet, BTW.)

Tambajam:

The fact that some mothers feel it is safer to bed share in the early days unfortunately doesn?t make it so. In fact, if you look at the papers I have highlighted in the summary document that I passed on to Geraldine yesterday, it is precisely in the first few weeks that the risk of bed sharing appears to be the greatest, with odds ratios ranging from about 5 to about 19 in different studies (that is the risk compared with non-bed sharing infants). I prefer to avoid the term co-sleeeping since it means different things to different people: some mean bed sharing, some mean room sharing and some mean any sleeping arrangement whereby a sleep surface is shared by a baby and another person. So, except where a specific question refers to another form of co-sleeping, I will confine my comments to bed sharing.

I know Helen Ball well (and, as it happens, am a member of the steering committee of her latest research project. Unfortunately, because the study is not completed or published I am unable to comment in any way on the progress of that). She and others, such as Jim McKenna of South Bend, Indiana, have shown an association between bed sharing and breast feeding, but not causation. It may well be that the cause of the association is that when mothers stop breast feeding they tend to stop bed sharing, rather than the other way around. Unfortunately, it is a fact of epidemiological research that what are called observational studies, which include case-control studies, can only demonstrate association, not causation in either direction.

FSID does give advice on how to make bed sharing as safe as possible and has being doing this for a number of years. On the other hand, we would hardly be doing the public a service by failing to draw attention to research that is already in the public domain.

gardeningmum05:

I am very sorry to hear of your experience. It is important to recognise that risk factors are not causes in a simple sense. Whatever the epidemiological evidence may show about population risks, it is never possible to identify a definite cause for an individual case of SIDS (if a cause were identified, it would not be classified as SIDS).

flamingobingo:

As I have commented before, it is not proven that planned co-sleeping increases breastfeeding duration. Furthermore, there are no statistics that I know that differentiate between planned bed sharing (I avoid the term co-sleeping as I have already commented) and unplanned bed sharing. Some of the studies have looked at both ?usual? bed sharing and bed sharing during the last sleep. Both appear to confer risk. In the recently published (April 2009) study by the German SIDS Study (Vennemann M M et al. Pediatrics (2009) 123:1162-1170), it was specifically those infants who were accustomed to bed sharing and who shared during the last night that were at increased risk on multivariate (adjucted) analysis: those who slept in the parental bed on the last night but were not accustomed to doing so were not at increased risk in the multivariate analysis.

Yes, babies die in cots too, but in the studies conducted and published by the FSID research group in Bristol, the incidence of infants dying in cots has fallen six fold since the back to sleep campaign was introduced but has only fallen by half in those bed sharing.

GH:

The papers I have referred to (references available on the website I hope) include many cases of babies who have died during regular sleeping in their parents? bed. All the studies that have differentiated bed sharing from sofa or settee sharing have shown that the risk is far higher in the sofa situation than in an adult bed. It is not possible to give overall figures for the three categories because (a) they differ somewhat between the various studies, and (b) the risk varies substantially with the age of the infant.

AnarchyAunt:

The German study just referred to conveys the opposite message, as far as bed sharing is concerned. Occasional or accidental co-sleeping on, for example, as sofa is very much more dangerous and I think everybody is agreed on that.

gingerninja:

Death in a parental bed (or anywhere else) due to suffocation or overlying is not classified as SIDS. Figures for lone sleeping are extensively covered in the papers I have cited before, and indeed in many others.

VeniVidiVickiQV:

(I like the classical allusion!) The epidemiological data on SIDS are indeed gathered retrospectively, since one cannot in general prospectively randomise families to different infant care practices, especially if there is good reason already to believe that one or more of the options confers added risk. There are one or two exceptions. For example, there are four prospective, randomised studies of dummy use and its relation to breast feeding exclusivity and duration (reviewed in O?Connor NR et al. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine (2009) 163: 378-382), which found no evidence of an adverse effect of dummy use on either index of breast feeding success.

Yes, socioeconomic factors are very definitely included in all the serious studies.

I avoid the use of the term co-sleeping because it includes too many different and diverse practices. I prefer to talk about bed sharing, sofa sharing, room sharing etc., to avoid confusion (which has unfortunately affected many published studies in the field).

Yes, the protective effects of breast feeding are factored into the research into bed sharing, in some but not all studies. Where it has been looked at, the combination of breast feeding and non bed sharing is the safest practice and the combination of bed sharing and not breast feeding is the least safe.

wuglet:

This is covered by my answer to flamingobingo above. Your second point is interesting, but a study by the German SIDS Study (a different one from the one referred to above, Venneman M M et al. Archives of Disease in Childhood (2005) 90: 520-522) found that symptoms of minor illness were no longer a predictor of SIDS in a population where the great majority of infants now sleep supine. Their results were obviously obtained from the German population but the general description fits the UK population as well.

Upwind:

Your first question is covered in the immediately previous answer.

The second point is difficult. I am not sure that the word ?subjective? is really the right one, but there may be differences of opinion on the cause of death in a particular case between different pathologists and, more importantly, different coroners since it is coroners who issue the death certificate in these cases. Most pathologists that I know, who actually do post mortem examinations in SIDS cases, believe they can tell the difference.

hunkermunker:

More deaths occur in the parental bed than on sofas, but a higher proportion of sofa sharers than bed sharers die, because bed sharing is a much commoner practice that sofa sharing. In an important study from Avon (Blair P S et al. Lancet (2006) 367: 314-319) comparing the statistics from 1984 to 2003, in the most recent cohort (1999-2003) 50% of deaths occurred in infants sleeping alone in cots, 39% in the parental bed and 11% were sofa sharing. Recent studies from Germany and the Netherlands suggest that following the guidelines ?to the letter? reduces but does not abolish the risk of bed sharing, especially in the youngest infants.

LupusinaLlamasuit:

(I hope your screen name refers to the wolf and not the disease!) I have given a list of relevant references to Geraldine which I hope will answer your first point. The FSID recommendations were actually based on published papers based on 2,616 SIDS cases and 9,296 controls ? not such a small sample really. All of these were published in peer reviewed journals.

FSID funds research projects for which funding is sought by independent researchers. If you or anyone you know has a coherent proposition for research of the kind you suggest, feel free to apply for support.

hedgiemum:

I?m afraid the information given to you by your HV is not correct (see previous answers and my accompanying document with published references).

Your personal predicament is a common one. It is worth remembering that both the risk of SIDS in general, and the risk of bed sharing, applies mainly to the youngest infants, i.e. those less than 2-3 months old.

hunkermunker:

Even at its worst in this country, before the ?back to sleep? campaign in the early 1990s, the cot death rate was about 2 per 1,000 live births (about 1,300 cases a year in England and Wales) which has now fallen to about 0.4 cases per 1,000 live births (about 300 a year). So, even when front sleeping, maternal smoking pregnancy and other avoidable risk factors were either not understood or not avoided, the great majority of babies survived. As I have tried to point out elsewhere, a risk factor is not a single cause. To use an analogy, nobody seriously doubts nowadays that cigarette smoking is a major risk factor for lung cancer, but most lifelong heavy smokers (90% in fact) don?t get lung cancer. The recommendations for avoiding SIDS are not designed to save the 700,000 or so babies born every year in this country but the few hundred who are still dying of this still incompletely understood condition.
The FSID guidelines do include the recommendation to breast feed your baby. To go back to your previous point, the huge majority of formula fed babies survive (and thrive!). The best evidence, incidentally, suggests that breast feeding modestly reduces the risk of SIDS compared with bottle feeding with an odds ratio of about 0.64. This figure comes from the USA Agency Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality report no. 153, available online at www.ahrq.gov/clinic/tp/brfouttp.htm. Beware, this report is about 400 pages long: the section on breast feeding and SIDS begins on page 97.
hanaflower:

Stats covering suffocation are not included in SIDS data, by definition, but there is one fairly recent paper from the USA covering this specifically (Scheers N J et al. Pediatrics (2003) 112: 883-889).

OP posts:
Upwind · 30/06/2009 11:08

"They also all control for other factors including parental smoking, socio-economic indices and in some cases breastfeeding as well.These studies come from Ireland, Scotland, England, New Zealand, the USA, the Netherlands and Germany, as well as one which is a multinational European study from 20 regions in Europe. (1)... In summary, all 8 of these found that bed sharing (as opposed to sofa sharing, which is a much higher risk) increased the risk of SIDS."

I had a quick look at the abstracts of the first four studies cited.

Study 1 found that "If the
mother smoked, significant risks were associated with bed-sharing, especially during the first weeks of life (at 2 weeks 27·0 [13·3-54·9]). This OR was partly attributable to mother's consumption of alcohol."

The abstracts of 2, 3 make no mention of alcohol consumption

The results and conclusion of 4 do not seem to support FSID advice:
"Results: In the multivariate analysis infants who shared their parents' bed and were then put back in their own cot had no increased risk (odds ratio 0.67; 95% confidence interval 0.22 to 2.00). There was an increased risk for infants who shared the bed for the whole sleep or were taken to and found in the parental bed (9.78; 4.02 to 23.83), infants who slept in a separate room from their parents (10.49; 4.26 to 25.81), and infants who shared a sofa (48.99; 5.04 to 475.60). The risk associated with being found in the parental bed was not significant for older infants (>14 weeks) or for infants of parents who did not smoke and became non-significant after adjustment for recent maternal alcohol consumption (>2 units), use of duvets (>4 togs), parental tiredness (infant slept =2 people per room of the house).
Conclusions: There are certain circumstances when bed sharing should be avoided, particularly for infants under four months old. Parents sleeping on a sofa with infants should always be avoided. There is no evidence that bed sharing is hazardous for infants of parents who do not smoke. "

poface · 30/06/2009 11:08

Professor Haycock the problem I find with this research is that often it seems to regard breastfeeding as no more than an incidental factor, and as actually breastfeeding has a huge effect on infant mortality, this should not be the case. Also, breastfeeding mothers have to make decisions on the safety of their babies based on personal experience. I was terrified of co sleeping with my first child, and dragged myself out of bed 3 or 4 times a night to breastfeed him on the sofa, exhausted and sleep deprived. I ate snacks, watched TV, to keep myself awake. I stopped doing this when I momentarily fell asleep on the sofa and dropped him aged 6 weeks old. From that point on we co slept, safely, [no smoking or alcohol or medication, he was not under duvet, bed guard] I am not an isolated case and you must consider this issue when offering advice. Why is there no research focussing solely on breastfed babies and co sleeping safety?

peppapighastakenovermylife · 30/06/2009 11:11

With regard to the evidence suggesting using a dummy decreases the odds ratio - did you consider breastfeeding as a covariate or examine the ratio for different groups based on breastfeeding duration?

I would have thought that for an infant who is truly breastfed on demand - kept close to the mother, frequent feeding, no bottles or nipple substitutes - the mothers nipple acts in a number of ways like a dummy. The infant does not sleep deeply and for long periods of time as they wake to feed. The infant would also fall asleep often on the nipple, sucking similarly to a dummy. Often, if co sleeping, the infant may be latched on for extended periods, not actually feeding, but comfort sucking (for want of a better term).

Is it possible to give an odds ratio for mothers and infants in that situation please?

Thanks

JimmyMcNulty · 30/06/2009 11:22

I have a question about dummies. Your research talks about babies who were 'offered' a dummy and that this cut their risk of SIDS... What does that mean exactly? If the dummy falls out (as my ds's always used to at some point in the night, sometimes in the first 5 mins after falling asleep) what happens to the risk then?

Reallytired · 30/06/2009 11:25

Is cot death more or less common among firstborn babies?

LeninGrad · 30/06/2009 11:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mangopassionfruitshake · 30/06/2009 11:27

Surely that depends on the number of babies in the UK (?) who sleep in a given way, Lenin.

Which is impossible to know, as so many people feel they need to lie to their HVs etc about co-sleeping...