Webchat, Tuesday 22 September, 1-2pm: What do you want to know about surrogacy?

[RachelMumsnet]

Come and join our webchat on Tuesday, 22 September (1-2pm), in which three people will share their experiences of, and expertise on, the subject of surrogacy.

Alice Jolly is a novelist, playwright and creative writing teacher. Her memoir, Dead Babies and Seaside Towns is an honest account of her experience of surrogacy. After the stillbirth of her second child, five miscarriages and a stalled attempt at adoption, surrogacy was Alice's final chance to have a second child. Commercial surrogacy illegal in Britain, so she and her husband faced a series of moral, emotional and legal obstacles before finding a woman in the US willing to carry their child. Her book offers a glimpse into a little-known, often misrepresented world.

Helen Prosser is a leading UK expert on surrogacy. Her team at non-profit agency Brilliant Beginnings supports parents and surrogates in the UK, and helps UK parents navigate the complex road of international surrogacy, as well as campaigning for change. She's a member of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority's National Donation Strategy Group, and a former trustee of the National Gamete Donation Trust.

Solicitor Natalie Gamble specialises in UK fertility law. Her team at Natalie Gamble Associates has represented more than 400 parents starting families through surrogacy, and has campaigned for years to improve the law. Natalie was named in the Independent on Sunday's Pink List as one of the UK's 100 most influential gay people, and as the Times Lawyer of the Week.

Put your questions to Alice, Natalie and Helen at 1pm on Tuesday - or if you're unable to join us then, post your questions in advance on this thread.

@makingmiracles

It is critical that regardless of whether you use an agency go go independent that you research thoroughly and get to know your surrogate/IPs for at least several months before any attempt at ttc even happens. This is a good time period for getting to know each other, discussing everything like abortions, abnormalities, reduction etc as well as building a relationship and using the time to carry out checks like dbs and std/stir checks etc

Yes it is extra-ordinary the stuff you have to discuss .... Where you want to physically stand at the time of the birth? Under what circumstances, if any, you would want to terminate the pregnancy. All sorts of things, some deadly serious, some just weird. But actually this is so, so important. It clears the way for you to just get on and have a good relationship with your surrogate. Our agency insisted on this and it was strange but so important.

@AliceJolly

[quote YonicScrewdriver] Do you think the law in this country should change to allow payment for surrogacy, not just expenses?

I think this is a tricky one but overall, yes, I do. I just feel that it is too much to ask someone to do this for free. Also (and I'm getting a bit controversial here) I think that if a man was going to carry a baby he'd make sure he was being paid. Some how women are expected to be noble and selfless and do things for no money. Also, in terms of our relationship with our surrogate, I wanted her to be paid. What she did for us was so amazing. I can't ever probably thank her. A million pounds would not be enough. But I'm glad that she got some things she wanted out of the whole thing. Otherwise the relationship between us would just be so unequal.[/quote]

I agree with Alice. Its not just the time and commitment of a surrogate but also the time and commitment of her partner/husband and the dramatic change in lifestyle that surrogates and their families give.

There is no amount that can 'recompense' a surrogate and there will always be an very strong element of altruism with any surrogate's motivation - including those who are 'compensated' in the US. We need to be more honest about it here in the UK - US surrogates typically receive $30,000 in compensation and a UK surrogate receives around £10,000 -£15,000 in expenses.

Reading with interest guys thanks.

As a surrogate, currently pregnant with two weeks to go or so (eek!) Im interested to read about the difference between the legalities from international surrogacy and domestic.

Do the courts here ever order a DNA test, for example?

I have also heard via the various facebook groups I am involved with, that sometimes the midwife can take it upon herself to inform Social Services in an attempt to look out for (?!) the surrogate's existing children...

Is this often seen?

@makingmiracles

If payment was allowed, Do you think pre birth orders must come first? I fear that by allowing payment people who shouldn't and wouldn't do it otherwise will do it because of the payment? Eg I think there would be more horror stories.

Natalie can say more about this. But in both the UK and the US (or at least in Minnesota where we were) they ask the surrogate (and check) whether she has been paid an amount which would persuade her to do something she would not otherwise have done. In other words, the courts don't want anyone paying silly sums of money which would tempt those who don't actually want to be a surrogate. In the US the amount we paid was equivalent to what you might earn in a year in a quite low paid job. So it was real money but not 'win the lottery money.' I think this is important. It should be a sum which his a real recompense for an important job - but not more than that.

@makingmiracles

If payment was allowed, Do you think pre birth orders must come first? I fear that by allowing payment people who shouldn't and wouldn't do it otherwise will do it because of the payment? Eg I think there would be more horror stories.

I think we are already in that difficult place. Payments can and are happening (despite what it might appear) but there is no framework to ensure that people are entering into arrangements on an informed basis. Having pre birth orders and a process to go through at the start would definitely help. What we want to make sure is that both surrogates and parents have thought things through properly and understood all the implications fully and are committed to the process. Signing up to an agreement (post counselling, advice and whatever else we think is necessary) would help minimise the risk of people doing it who shouldn't.

@GayByrne

Reading with interest guys thanks.

As a surrogate, currently pregnant with two weeks to go or so (eek!) Im interested to read about the difference between the legalities from international surrogacy and domestic.

Do the courts here ever order a DNA test, for example?

I have also heard via the various facebook groups I am involved with, that sometimes the midwife can take it upon herself to inform Social Services in an attempt to look out for (?!) the surrogate's existing children...

Is this often seen?

Very good luck for the weeks ahead. You are wonderful to do this. Congratulations to you. I haven't heard that about midwives. Sounds like they haven't really understood what surrogacy is about.

@GayByrne

Reading with interest guys thanks.

As a surrogate, currently pregnant with two weeks to go or so (eek!) Im interested to read about the difference between the legalities from international surrogacy and domestic.

Do the courts here ever order a DNA test, for example?

I have also heard via the various facebook groups I am involved with, that sometimes the midwife can take it upon herself to inform Social Services in an attempt to look out for (?!) the surrogate's existing children...

Is this often seen?

It's really rare for the courts to ask for a DNA test (although they do usually ask for a letter from the clinic if it's a GS with a clinic involved).

We have seen a few cases where maternity hospitals have made referrals to social services. It's essentially just ignorance - if the parents intend to apply for a parental order there is a specific bit of law which says that social services do not need to be involved. Usually in practice it just needs a bit of smoothing over and explanation (and there's a specific page on the Natalie Gamble Associates website which we've written to help with this - if it happens to you you can point the hospital to it!).

However, again, wouldn't it be better if the intended parents were the parents at birth and it was all legally supported??

@makingmiracles

It is critical that regardless of whether you use an agency go go independent that you research thoroughly and get to know your surrogate/IPs for at least several months before any attempt at ttc even happens. This is a good time period for getting to know each other, discussing everything like abortions, abnormalities, reduction etc as well as building a relationship and using the time to carry out checks like dbs and std/stir checks etc

Yes definitely. You need to make sure that all the nitty gritty issues have been properly explored. Having input from an experienced agency can help with that process, particularly with helping you tackle any potentially awkward questions (expenses is a common one!). So time, yes, but use the time well.

Luckily ours have been amazing and Worcester hospital even has a framework for surrogacy births! Such progressive thinking.

@GayByrne

Luckily ours have been amazing and Worcester hospital even has a framework for surrogacy births! Such progressive thinking.

Brilliant! You couldn't email me with some details could you? We are trying to put together a model policy to encourage all hospitals to use in surrogacy cases, and collecting examples of good practice.

Glad all is good in Worcester!

@AliceJolly

[quote GayByrne] Reading with interest guys thanks.

As a surrogate, currently pregnant with two weeks to go or so (eek!) Im interested to read about the difference between the legalities from international surrogacy and domestic.

Do the courts here ever order a DNA test, for example?

I have also heard via the various facebook groups I am involved with, that sometimes the midwife can take it upon herself to inform Social Services in an attempt to look out for (?!) the surrogate's existing children...

Is this often seen?

Very good luck for the weeks ahead. You are wonderful to do this. Congratulations to you. I haven't heard that about midwives. Sounds like they haven't really understood what surrogacy is about.[/quote]

Coming back on this again, I do wish the situation in the UK was at least a bit clearer. I feel that someone like you (who is doing something wonderful) shouldn't have to put up with your motives being misunderstood. I felt that in the States it was all very clear what was what. We were asked if we wanted a DNA test but we declined and that was accepted. Having said that, our surrogate was asked questions in court which I considered insensitive. She was very brave but I wish she didn't have to go through that.

Even Greece is totally progressive in this area, allowing the Commisioning Parents to apply for the birth certificate from the off...amazing!

@GayByrne

Reading with interest guys thanks.

As a surrogate, currently pregnant with two weeks to go or so (eek!) Im interested to read about the difference between the legalities from international surrogacy and domestic.

Do the courts here ever order a DNA test, for example?

I have also heard via the various facebook groups I am involved with, that sometimes the midwife can take it upon herself to inform Social Services in an attempt to look out for (?!) the surrogate's existing children...

Is this often seen?

Hi - wow! Many many congratulations and well done! I'll let Natalie answer the DNA test question but if the conception took place at a clinic then this is unlikely.

Another symptom of the newness of surrogacy here in the UK, is that midwives and hospitals sometimes don't have experience of surrogacy and so will mistakenly alert social services. Though this is rare. This can be cleared up quickly with a call explaining the parental order process and the role of CAFCASS and there's information on the Natalie Gamble Associates that you can signpost them too. One thing you can do is speak to your hospital in advance of your delivery so they know that you are in a surrogacy arrangement which helps them work things through and obviously speaking your midwife - you have probably done this already when working through your birth plan.

Very best of luck!

@GayByrne

Luckily ours have been amazing and Worcester hospital even has a framework for surrogacy births! Such progressive thinking.

That is great. I'm sure that makes it clearer for everyone involved. In the States the particular hospital we dealt with didn't have experience of surrogacy but they had obviously taken advice and were very kind and clear and professional. It made a huge difference. I'll remember those people with gratitude for ever. At such a huge emotional moment it really helps if you are dealing with kind, professional, non judgmental people.

Will do Natalie.

I've heard that some registrars are now allowing the Intended Father to go on the birth cert even if the Surro is married, without the prerequisite letter of non-consent from the surrogate's husband. What are the issues around this?

Can my husband just state, in writing, that he doesn't want to go on the birth certificate? He woudn't state he didn't consent to the surrogacy, because he did...

@NatalieGamble

[quote QOD] In the UK DNA is often used. My social worker (sore point) went on and on in her report about dd looking the image if dh and the court didn't order them for us.

I have a question ré the £10 000 expenses .... how can that NOT be payment? We paid true expenses and it was around £2 000

I guess it depends on what the definition expenses is.... and there isn't one. Some people take expenses to mean actual out of pocket costs related directly to the pregnancy, others include holidays and relaxation, others include an element of inconvenience or discomfort. There are no official guidelines on what is allowed, and no set figures.

It's not illegal to pay a surrogate under UK law, so this whole issue only gets tested by the family court when they are deciding whether to make a parental order sorting out the parenthood issues. And of course by that stage the court is concerned with protecting the child, and so in practice payments of any amount have always been authorised.[/quote]

My feeling is that the whole UK focus on 'expenses' is woolly and evades the real issue. Some how it seems that the UK is happy with the idea of expenses but not with payment. To me that seems a bit silly and also open to abuse. What other extremely important job does anyone do for 'expenses?' I think if someone is paid then it should be acknowledged that they are paid. It is very British to 'fudge' things in this way - and not really helpful.

@GayByrne

Will do Natalie.

I've heard that some registrars are now allowing the Intended Father to go on the birth cert even if the Surro is married, without the prerequisite letter of non-consent from the surrogate's husband. What are the issues around this?

Can my husband just state, in writing, that he doesn't want to go on the birth certificate? He woudn't state he didn't consent to the surrogacy, because he did...

If they are, then that's wrong. Very rarely there are cases where the surrogate's husband genuinely does not consent (for example if they are separated and he doesn't know about the surrogacy at all) but in cases where husbands are involved and supportive, they are the legal fathers regardless of anything they sign.

I get asked this question a lot, and the answer is that, though in practice you might get away with registering the birth wrongly (albeit that is a criminal offence to do so!) it can also really complicate the parental order application if the wrong thing is on the birth certificate. The best advice is just to swallow it, knowing that the birth certificate will be reissued once the parental order is made.

Sorry! I wish the law was better too

@NatalieGamble

[quote AliceJolly] [quote NatalieGamble]

[quote TheXxed]
How can the UK strengthen its surrogacy laws to avoid the exploitation of women?

The use of eggs purchased from women in poor foreign countries and the farming of poor women's bodies for exploitation from wealthy western couples is often overlooked. Only the benefit and well being of the wealthy western couples is examined, hopefully this webchat will be more than just a PR exercise for a deeply problematic practice.

We see the whole spectrum of surrogacy, in the UK, US, India, Thailand, Mexico and elsewhere. There are some very serious concerns about exploitation of women, particularly in poorer destinations where there is very little regulation of third party intermediaries. I worry particularly about the arrangements where parents do not have much if any contact with their surrogate and so rely entirely on the agency to make sure she is well looked after. I think governments and international bodies have a responsibility to protect surrogates, parents and children, but we also need to look to the good models of surrogacy where everyone is fully informed and consenting and it is a genuinely positive experience for everyone.

We could also stop driving parents overseas by making responsible ethical surrogacy more accessible in the UK.[/quote]

I'm not sure that the UK can do much on its own. It bans commercial surrogacy here anyway. The problem is what is going on abroad in countries where there is very little regulation. But it is genuinely complicated. If a UK couple turn up at UK airport with a baby which one of them is related to then what are the authorities going to do? Refuse them entry? Fine them? I just don't know. As Natalie said we need a strong international legal framework. Also, again as Natalie says, we can look at the countries where this works better. Although I am a mum to a baby born to a surrogate, I am extremely well aware of the exploitation that takes place elsewhere. But it is so complicated. Given the experiences I've lived through I've seen women who are just so desperate for a baby .... and I do feel for them. That doesn't give them the right to exploit other people I know. But infertility is a terrible thing to go through. It does make you a bit mad. I know it did that to me. I repeat that I'm not saying this to justify exploitation. I'm just trying to see all sides of this difficult question.[/quote]

I also think we need to be careful about presuming that women in poorer countries are not able to make valid choices, and presuming that parents who go overseas to poorer countries do not care about managing things responsibly and making sure their surrogate is not exploited. These issues are incredibly complicated.[/quote]

I also think that there is a global interest/concern for surrogacy with a number of organisations and bodies keen to understand and share practices so that surrogates and intended parents are protected. Surrogacy is growing on a global level and it is not going to go away.

@AliceJolly

[quote NatalieGamble] [quote QOD] In the UK DNA is often used. My social worker (sore point) went on and on in her report about dd looking the image if dh and the court didn't order them for us.

I have a question ré the £10 000 expenses .... how can that NOT be payment? We paid true expenses and it was around £2 000

I guess it depends on what the definition expenses is.... and there isn't one. Some people take expenses to mean actual out of pocket costs related directly to the pregnancy, others include holidays and relaxation, others include an element of inconvenience or discomfort. There are no official guidelines on what is allowed, and no set figures.

It's not illegal to pay a surrogate under UK law, so this whole issue only gets tested by the family court when they are deciding whether to make a parental order sorting out the parenthood issues. And of course by that stage the court is concerned with protecting the child, and so in practice payments of any amount have always been authorised.[/quote]

My feeling is that the whole UK focus on 'expenses' is woolly and evades the real issue. Some how it seems that the UK is happy with the idea of expenses but not with payment. To me that seems a bit silly and also open to abuse. What other extremely important job does anyone do for 'expenses?' I think if someone is paid then it should be acknowledged that they are paid. It is very British to 'fudge' things in this way - and not really helpful.[/quote]

Hear hear

@GayByrne

Even Greece is totally progressive in this area, allowing the Commisioning Parents to apply for the birth certificate from the off...amazing!

Interesting, isn't it? The attitudes that different countries have. I found our US surrogacy lawyer interesting. He said, 'Between you and me, all this is rife with hypocrisy. Believe me I get them all ... including very senior members of the Catholic Church. So many people are against surrogacy. But they change pretty quickly when it turns out their daughter can't have a child.' I quote that because it is relevant to me too. Ten years ago I would have had serious doubts. But then I knew nothing about surrogacy. Now I know it can be wonderful in many cases - but I'm not ignoring the difficult moral issues that still very much exist.

Just to follow up the DNA question - my concern was that surrogacy could be used as a guise for simple baby selling (esp in international cases). Is there anything to check that it is a genuine surrogacy case? I assume a group willing to sell a baby is also willing to forge documents.

@Ana27

Just to follow up the DNA question - my concern was that surrogacy could be used as a guise for simple baby selling (esp in international cases). Is there anything to check that it is a genuine surrogacy case? I assume a group willing to sell a baby is also willing to forge documents.

This isn't something I've seen happen, but I can understand your concern. The UK immigration authorities seem to require a DNA test in all countries except India and the USA where they are happy to rely on a letter from the clinic (in most cases, not all). I don't know the reason why it's different in different places.

The UK court does not routinely ask for a DNA test, and tends to take things at face value. But of course the court is looking at things after the child is in the care of the intended parents, so it may be too late by then anyway.

@AliceJolly

[quote NatalieGamble] [quote QOD] In the UK DNA is often used. My social worker (sore point) went on and on in her report about dd looking the image if dh and the court didn't order them for us.

I have a question ré the £10 000 expenses .... how can that NOT be payment? We paid true expenses and it was around £2 000

I guess it depends on what the definition expenses is.... and there isn't one. Some people take expenses to mean actual out of pocket costs related directly to the pregnancy, others include holidays and relaxation, others include an element of inconvenience or discomfort. There are no official guidelines on what is allowed, and no set figures.

It's not illegal to pay a surrogate under UK law, so this whole issue only gets tested by the family court when they are deciding whether to make a parental order sorting out the parenthood issues. And of course by that stage the court is concerned with protecting the child, and so in practice payments of any amount have always been authorised.[/quote]

My feeling is that the whole UK focus on 'expenses' is woolly and evades the real issue. Some how it seems that the UK is happy with the idea of expenses but not with payment. To me that seems a bit silly and also open to abuse. What other extremely important job does anyone do for 'expenses?' I think if someone is paid then it should be acknowledged that they are paid. It is very British to 'fudge' things in this way - and not really helpful.[/quote]

The legal framework is not clear hence on a practical level, more than definitive expenses are paid. The result is that everyone feels uncomfortable and vulnerable about talking about expenses and being clear about it at the beginning. Which helps no one.

@HelenProsser

[quote NatalieGamble] [quote AliceJolly]

[quote NatalieGamble]

[quote TheXxed]
How can the UK strengthen its surrogacy laws to avoid the exploitation of women?

The use of eggs purchased from women in poor foreign countries and the farming of poor women's bodies for exploitation from wealthy western couples is often overlooked. Only the benefit and well being of the wealthy western couples is examined, hopefully this webchat will be more than just a PR exercise for a deeply problematic practice.

We see the whole spectrum of surrogacy, in the UK, US, India, Thailand, Mexico and elsewhere. There are some very serious concerns about exploitation of women, particularly in poorer destinations where there is very little regulation of third party intermediaries. I worry particularly about the arrangements where parents do not have much if any contact with their surrogate and so rely entirely on the agency to make sure she is well looked after. I think governments and international bodies have a responsibility to protect surrogates, parents and children, but we also need to look to the good models of surrogacy where everyone is fully informed and consenting and it is a genuinely positive experience for everyone.

We could also stop driving parents overseas by making responsible ethical surrogacy more accessible in the UK.[/quote]

I'm not sure that the UK can do much on its own. It bans commercial surrogacy here anyway. The problem is what is going on abroad in countries where there is very little regulation. But it is genuinely complicated. If a UK couple turn up at UK airport with a baby which one of them is related to then what are the authorities going to do? Refuse them entry? Fine them? I just don't know. As Natalie said we need a strong international legal framework. Also, again as Natalie says, we can look at the countries where this works better. Although I am a mum to a baby born to a surrogate, I am extremely well aware of the exploitation that takes place elsewhere. But it is so complicated. Given the experiences I've lived through I've seen women who are just so desperate for a baby .... and I do feel for them. That doesn't give them the right to exploit other people I know. But infertility is a terrible thing to go through. It does make you a bit mad. I know it did that to me. I repeat that I'm not saying this to justify exploitation. I'm just trying to see all sides of this difficult question.[/quote]

I also think we need to be careful about presuming that women in poorer countries are not able to make valid choices, and presuming that parents who go overseas to poorer countries do not care about managing things responsibly and making sure their surrogate is not exploited. These issues are incredibly complicated.[/quote]

I also think that there is a global interest/concern for surrogacy with a number of organisations and bodies keen to understand and share practices so that surrogates and intended parents are protected. Surrogacy is growing on a global level and it is not going to go away.[/quote]

Yes, we do have to careful about assuming that women in Third World countries can't make their own decisions. Perhaps some can't but some can. There can be a tendency for people to jump to the defence of 'oppressed' women - but before any of us do that we should check that they are oppressed. One friend of mine was critical of what we did due to exploitation. But she knows noting of our surrogate. Our surrogate is, quite honestly, one of the least oppressed women I know. She is highly intelligent and switched on a makes her own choices. I know that she is in the States and that makes a difference. I'm just saying that each case is different and we should be careful about making judgements about other people's 'oppression.'

Signing off now, but thanks for all your brilliant questions.

There is a load of free information about surrogacy law on our website at www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk (see the online Knowledge Centre) if you have any more queries, or do email us at [email protected].

Thanks everyone!

Natalie