Webchat, Tuesday 22 September, 1-2pm: What do you want to know about surrogacy?

[RachelMumsnet]

Come and join our webchat on Tuesday, 22 September (1-2pm), in which three people will share their experiences of, and expertise on, the subject of surrogacy.

Alice Jolly is a novelist, playwright and creative writing teacher. Her memoir, Dead Babies and Seaside Towns is an honest account of her experience of surrogacy. After the stillbirth of her second child, five miscarriages and a stalled attempt at adoption, surrogacy was Alice's final chance to have a second child. Commercial surrogacy illegal in Britain, so she and her husband faced a series of moral, emotional and legal obstacles before finding a woman in the US willing to carry their child. Her book offers a glimpse into a little-known, often misrepresented world.

Helen Prosser is a leading UK expert on surrogacy. Her team at non-profit agency Brilliant Beginnings supports parents and surrogates in the UK, and helps UK parents navigate the complex road of international surrogacy, as well as campaigning for change. She's a member of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority's National Donation Strategy Group, and a former trustee of the National Gamete Donation Trust.

Solicitor Natalie Gamble specialises in UK fertility law. Her team at Natalie Gamble Associates has represented more than 400 parents starting families through surrogacy, and has campaigned for years to improve the law. Natalie was named in the Independent on Sunday's Pink List as one of the UK's 100 most influential gay people, and as the Times Lawyer of the Week.

Put your questions to Alice, Natalie and Helen at 1pm on Tuesday - or if you're unable to join us then, post your questions in advance on this thread.

Hello

I have been thinking about becoming a surrogate for a while now and now I have finished my family would really like to know where to start. It is such an amazing gift that I can give to someone and would like some help to start this journey. Can you help?

Thank you
Em

@makingmiracles

For those thinking of surrogacy, if you choose to go with an agency please please do your research, some are less nice than others. Google the people in charge, find out as much as you can about fees etc and go on Fb and join surrogacy groups, within the surrogacy circle it is well known which are good and which are best avoided!!

This is very good advice. We had a really lovely agency we trusted and who were professional. We really needed them. Also our lovely surrogate needed them. We wanted them to look after her really well - and I think they did. I hope we did as well. She's an amazing lady. I still find myself overwhelmed by what she did for us. She has now had a baby for another couple. Amazing.

@EmFackrell

Hello

I have been thinking about becoming a surrogate for a while now and now I have finished my family would really like to know where to start. It is such an amazing gift that I can give to someone and would like some help to start this journey. Can you help?

Thank you
Em

Again I don't feel I can advise. Hopefully Helen will. But can I just say thank you thank you thank you for even thinking about this. You have children yourself. You know what a miracle and a blessing this is. You are a star even to think of helping another woman in this way. Good luck.

@AliceJolly

[quote makingmiracles] Do you think a pre birth order like America has is the way to go? Don't most IPs go abroad because of the perceived lack of uk surrogates?

People do go abroad because of the perceived lack of UK surrogates. The American system worked well for us. It was very, very clear what everyone was signing up to. There was no confusion. Our surrogate (incidentally a gestational surrogate )knew there was no way she could change her mind. That may sound tough but I know, that if I asked her, she would say that it made things easier for her. She felt a clear separation in our mind. She always said, 'I love Hope but I have never though of her as mine.'[/quote]

For people who don't go to the US, we can do a lot to raise awareness of surrogacy here in the UK - there are some incredibly generous women (with incredibly supportive husbands and partners) who become surrogates. Hearing more about their positive stories of how they become surrogates needs to be told. It can work here in the UK, it just needs careful preparation and support.

Speaking as a ts surrogate, it was something I'd thought about for 11 years before I actually did it. At no point did I feel that he was mine, as such it was one of the most surreal experiences of my life, but amazing and euphoric. If you have any doubts don't do it, it's something you need to be really sure about and at ease with.

In my mind I was simply donating my egg, but carrying him as well.

@makingmiracles

so it was mainly because of the fact a uk surrogate could change her mind?

It is so very sad to see that amongst thousands of successful journeys the one or two isolated cases where that has happened in the uk continue to spread such unease and mistrust. :(

I think you are so right about this. I wrote my book not to market surrogacy. I would never do that. I'm sorry for the people who can't have a baby in the usually way and have to look at some fairly difficult choices .... But I did want to say - look this can work. It can make everyone happy. It can solve a problem which looks insoluble. I just wanted to tell the story of a 'normal' surrogacy (if I can use that word!) because that story is never told. The press continue to report surrogacy in an non representative, hysterical way. I don't care whether people are in favour of surrogacy or not. But I'm really hoping that my book might raise the level of the debate.

@TheXxed

How can the UK strengthen its surrogacy laws to avoid the exploitation of women?

The use of eggs purchased from women in poor foreign countries and the farming of poor women's bodies for exploitation from wealthy western couples is often overlooked. Only the benefit and well being of the wealthy western couples is examined, hopefully this webchat will be more than just a PR exercise for a deeply problematic practice.

We see the whole spectrum of surrogacy, in the UK, US, India, Thailand, Mexico and elsewhere. There are some very serious concerns about exploitation of women, particularly in poorer destinations where there is very little regulation of third party intermediaries. I worry particularly about the arrangements where parents do not have much if any contact with their surrogate and so rely entirely on the agency to make sure she is well looked after. I think governments and international bodies have a responsibility to protect surrogates, parents and children, but we also need to look to the good models of surrogacy where everyone is fully informed and consenting and it is a genuinely positive experience for everyone.

We could also stop driving parents overseas by making responsible ethical surrogacy more accessible in the UK.

@makingmiracles

Speaking as a ts surrogate, it was something I'd thought about for 11 years before I actually did it. At no point did I feel that he was mine, as such it was one of the most surreal experiences of my life, but amazing and euphoric. If you have any doubts don't do it, it's something you need to be really sure about and at ease with.

In my mind I was simply donating my egg, but carrying him as well.

Thank you. Great advice.

@AliceJolly

[quote makingmiracles] Speaking as a ts surrogate, it was something I'd thought about for 11 years before I actually did it. At no point did I feel that he was mine, as such it was one of the most surreal experiences of my life, but amazing and euphoric. If you have any doubts don't do it, it's something you need to be really sure about and at ease with.

In my mind I was simply donating my egg, but carrying him as well.

Thank you. Great advice.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. As a surrogate, you have to have your head in the right place and be sure you are ready. Good for you, changing someone's world!

@AliceJolly

[quote EmFackrell] Hello

I have been thinking about becoming a surrogate for a while now and now I have finished my family would really like to know where to start. It is such an amazing gift that I can give to someone and would like some help to start this journey. Can you help?

Thank you
Em

Again I don't feel I can advise. Hopefully Helen will. But can I just say thank you thank you thank you for even thinking about this. You have children yourself. You know what a miracle and a blessing this is. You are a star even to think of helping another woman in this way. Good luck.[/quote]

Hi EmFackrell - wow. You are awesome! What a gift to be able to give another family. We work with a number of intended parents who would be so incredibly grateful for your help. We have lots of information on the Brilliant Beginnings website to help get you started. From there we would be very happy to take you through the process of understanding the treatment involved, the support and involvement of your family and friends, important things for you to think about as well as focussing on the trickier more sensitive issues like expenses, views on termination and what happens if things don't go to plan. Our role is the ensure that things stay on track and support and guide you and your intended parents. We match one to one and hold your hand all the way. Do be in touch if I can help with any specific questions you might have.

@AliceJolly

[quote makingmiracles] Speaking as a ts surrogate, it was something I'd thought about for 11 years before I actually did it. At no point did I feel that he was mine, as such it was one of the most surreal experiences of my life, but amazing and euphoric. If you have any doubts don't do it, it's something you need to be really sure about and at ease with.

In my mind I was simply donating my egg, but carrying him as well.

Thank you. Great advice.[/quote]

Well said makingmiracles!

@NatalieGamble

[quote Lumdeedums] Technically a surrogate is birth mother and has rights but the only (1 out of 890 odd surrogate births I know of) time a surro tried to keep baby, she was taken to court and the child removed from her care and given to the rightful parents. This was even a TS baby. However technically you're right. A surrogate, GS or TS can claim baby as their own but it really doesn't happen often as our worst nightmare as surrogates is being left with a baby.

You are right. Although people talk about surrogates having a 'right' to keep the baby if they change their minds, actually it isn't that simple. There have only been 3 reported cases in the UK of this kind of dispute after surrogacy and in all of them the family court has to decide what is in the child's best interests. In two cases, the intended parents were given care of the child.

I always stress to people that this is very rare, and that you can minimise your risk of problems considerably by going into things thoroughly and clearly at the outset, and building a strong relationship with your surrogate.

Surrogates also worry about being left holding the baby, although again that is incredibly rare.

I have dealt with hundreds of surrogacy situations and can count on one hand the arrangements where there were serious problems. In most, the parents and surrogate are united in a common goal and it's a fantastically empowering team venture for everyone involved - resulting in some very lucky children![/quote]

I would second Natalie's answer here. We are always hearing about the 1% of surrogacy cases that go wrong. We tend not to hear the better stories. I worried all along that our surrogate would want to keep the baby. But the Agency in the US said they had never seen it happen. Also once I got talking to our surrogate in more detail I knew that she really didn't want to keep our baby at all. She was very clear in her mind. And she has gone on to be a surrogate again.

@NatalieGamble

[quote Lumdeedums] Technically a surrogate is birth mother and has rights but the only (1 out of 890 odd surrogate births I know of) time a surro tried to keep baby, she was taken to court and the child removed from her care and given to the rightful parents. This was even a TS baby. However technically you're right. A surrogate, GS or TS can claim baby as their own but it really doesn't happen often as our worst nightmare as surrogates is being left with a baby.

You are right. Although people talk about surrogates having a 'right' to keep the baby if they change their minds, actually it isn't that simple. There have only been 3 reported cases in the UK of this kind of dispute after surrogacy and in all of them the family court has to decide what is in the child's best interests. In two cases, the intended parents were given care of the child.

I always stress to people that this is very rare, and that you can minimise your risk of problems considerably by going into things thoroughly and clearly at the outset, and building a strong relationship with your surrogate.

Surrogates also worry about being left holding the baby, although again that is incredibly rare.

I have dealt with hundreds of surrogacy situations and can count on one hand the arrangements where there were serious problems. In most, the parents and surrogate are united in a common goal and it's a fantastically empowering team venture for everyone involved - resulting in some very lucky children![/quote]

Just to add to this - and a common theme for the arrangements that we help with. The key is to set things up carefully and also to get the support from organisations that are here so that you have some objective friends helping to guide you through the journey.

@HelenProsser

[quote SeaMagic] Thank you for arranging this web chat, fascinating subject.

I would like to understand more about the legalities of surrogacy in the UK versus the situation in other places, i.e. the US

Also how do you make contact with a possible surrogate in the UK and what contract is required/advised, how much can a surrogate be paid or compensated financially?

Also am very interested to hear about the experience of surrogates and those requiring or considering surrogacy.

Hi SeaMagic - thanks for your post. Natalie can help with the legalities here in the UK and the legal framework if you go abroad.

There are lots of ways that you can find a surrogate here in the UK - there are 3 non-profit making organisations (Brilliant Beginnings, Surrogacy UK and COTS) who can all help. That said, there is a general shortage of surrogates (and this is the really frustrating thing about the UK as there isn't a specific time frame where you can find a surrogate) The way each organisation match is slightly different so its worth checking each out and seeing which way works best for you. There are also Facebook sites as well as other global sites - like anything you just want to make sure you take care to get to you know your surrogate and can form an open trust based relationship with her (and her husband or partner if she has one). You want to make sure that you are as aligned in your key decisions so that everyone is on the same page. And put that in writing.

Expenses can be tricky - surrogates typically receive expenses of around £10,000 - £15,000. Again making sure everyone is clear about what expenses are being covered as well as the timings of payments is important - again put it in writing!

If you can do this, it is a really amazing relationship for everyone![/quote]

Hi SeaMagic

Surrogacy is legal in the UK, but surrogacy agreements are not recognised, which means that the parents have to apply to court after the baby is born to have a new birth certificate issued in their names (the process takes about 6 months). That's the main difference with other places. In many US states, the parents and surrogate enter into an agreement before they conceive that is legally recognised, and it enables the intended parents to be registered on the birth certificate from the start. The same is true in India and the Ukraine, although with a less formal process.

The other big difference is that in other countries surrogacy 'services' are more widely available, where in the UK anyone arranging surrogacy is not allowed to make a profit. In practice, that means that the path to finding a surrogate to help you can be longer and more informal.

@NatalieGamble

[quote TheXxed] How can the UK strengthen its surrogacy laws to avoid the exploitation of women?

The use of eggs purchased from women in poor foreign countries and the farming of poor women's bodies for exploitation from wealthy western couples is often overlooked. Only the benefit and well being of the wealthy western couples is examined, hopefully this webchat will be more than just a PR exercise for a deeply problematic practice.

We see the whole spectrum of surrogacy, in the UK, US, India, Thailand, Mexico and elsewhere. There are some very serious concerns about exploitation of women, particularly in poorer destinations where there is very little regulation of third party intermediaries. I worry particularly about the arrangements where parents do not have much if any contact with their surrogate and so rely entirely on the agency to make sure she is well looked after. I think governments and international bodies have a responsibility to protect surrogates, parents and children, but we also need to look to the good models of surrogacy where everyone is fully informed and consenting and it is a genuinely positive experience for everyone.

We could also stop driving parents overseas by making responsible ethical surrogacy more accessible in the UK.[/quote]

I'm not sure that the UK can do much on its own. It bans commercial surrogacy here anyway. The problem is what is going on abroad in countries where there is very little regulation. But it is genuinely complicated. If a UK couple turn up at UK airport with a baby which one of them is related to then what are the authorities going to do? Refuse them entry? Fine them? I just don't know. As Natalie said we need a strong international legal framework. Also, again as Natalie says, we can look at the countries where this works better. Although I am a mum to a baby born to a surrogate, I am extremely well aware of the exploitation that takes place elsewhere. But it is so complicated. Given the experiences I've lived through I've seen women who are just so desperate for a baby .... and I do feel for them. That doesn't give them the right to exploit other people I know. But infertility is a terrible thing to go through. It does make you a bit mad. I know it did that to me. I repeat that I'm not saying this to justify exploitation. I'm just trying to see all sides of this difficult question.

@HelenProsser

[quote NatalieGamble] [quote Lumdeedums] Technically a surrogate is birth mother and has rights but the only (1 out of 890 odd surrogate births I know of) time a surro tried to keep baby, she was taken to court and the child removed from her care and given to the rightful parents. This was even a TS baby. However technically you're right. A surrogate, GS or TS can claim baby as their own but it really doesn't happen often as our worst nightmare as surrogates is being left with a baby.

You are right. Although people talk about surrogates having a 'right' to keep the baby if they change their minds, actually it isn't that simple. There have only been 3 reported cases in the UK of this kind of dispute after surrogacy and in all of them the family court has to decide what is in the child's best interests. In two cases, the intended parents were given care of the child.

I always stress to people that this is very rare, and that you can minimise your risk of problems considerably by going into things thoroughly and clearly at the outset, and building a strong relationship with your surrogate.

Surrogates also worry about being left holding the baby, although again that is incredibly rare.

I have dealt with hundreds of surrogacy situations and can count on one hand the arrangements where there were serious problems. In most, the parents and surrogate are united in a common goal and it's a fantastically empowering team venture for everyone involved - resulting in some very lucky children![/quote]

Just to add to this - and a common theme for the arrangements that we help with. The key is to set things up carefully and also to get the support from organisations that are here so that you have some objective friends helping to guide you through the journey.[/quote]

As someone who has been through surrogacy I would say that it is difficult, expensive and emotionally draining. That was four years ago. Things have got better because the path is becoming more well trodden. But once you have a child you never look back and question whether you made the right choices. You just know that you are very, very lucky. I feel incredibly blessed that we could do what we did. I wouldn't say 'I recommend it.' I couldn't say that. But it can work and it did for us. And also now it just doesn't matter. She's a normal four year old. We are a normal family. Well, not quite. But you can't see that from the outside.

@NoTeaForMe

I've been thinking about this for a while. I fell pregnant easily with both my children and can't imagine living with infertility. For the surrogates out there-did you struggle with the baby not being yours?

What can you do as a surrogate to protect yourself? You do hear horror stories in the press, like of the mother not wanting the baby as it's not perfect, what if the family change once you're pregnant? I don't know there's potential for a lot to go wrong, or it feels like it.

Hi there. This is the flip-side of parents feeling anxious that the surrogate will not hand over the baby, and we hear it all the time. It's completely understandable, and I wish we had a system of recognised agreements to protect surrogates too. However, I would just say that in all the hundreds of cases I have dealt with I have never once had an intended parent reject a surrogate child. Most have been through such a terrible time and can't quite believe that someone would be willing to help them have a family.

The answer is that you need to feel confident in the intended parents you work with - just as they need to feel confident in you. Time, support, and plenty of honesty is what's needed to make surrogacy work well.

@AliceJolly

[quote NatalieGamble] [quote TheXxed] How can the UK strengthen its surrogacy laws to avoid the exploitation of women?

The use of eggs purchased from women in poor foreign countries and the farming of poor women's bodies for exploitation from wealthy western couples is often overlooked. Only the benefit and well being of the wealthy western couples is examined, hopefully this webchat will be more than just a PR exercise for a deeply problematic practice.

We see the whole spectrum of surrogacy, in the UK, US, India, Thailand, Mexico and elsewhere. There are some very serious concerns about exploitation of women, particularly in poorer destinations where there is very little regulation of third party intermediaries. I worry particularly about the arrangements where parents do not have much if any contact with their surrogate and so rely entirely on the agency to make sure she is well looked after. I think governments and international bodies have a responsibility to protect surrogates, parents and children, but we also need to look to the good models of surrogacy where everyone is fully informed and consenting and it is a genuinely positive experience for everyone.

We could also stop driving parents overseas by making responsible ethical surrogacy more accessible in the UK.[/quote]

I'm not sure that the UK can do much on its own. It bans commercial surrogacy here anyway. The problem is what is going on abroad in countries where there is very little regulation. But it is genuinely complicated. If a UK couple turn up at UK airport with a baby which one of them is related to then what are the authorities going to do? Refuse them entry? Fine them? I just don't know. As Natalie said we need a strong international legal framework. Also, again as Natalie says, we can look at the countries where this works better. Although I am a mum to a baby born to a surrogate, I am extremely well aware of the exploitation that takes place elsewhere. But it is so complicated. Given the experiences I've lived through I've seen women who are just so desperate for a baby .... and I do feel for them. That doesn't give them the right to exploit other people I know. But infertility is a terrible thing to go through. It does make you a bit mad. I know it did that to me. I repeat that I'm not saying this to justify exploitation. I'm just trying to see all sides of this difficult question.[/quote]

I also think we need to be careful about presuming that women in poorer countries are not able to make valid choices, and presuming that parents who go overseas to poorer countries do not care about managing things responsibly and making sure their surrogate is not exploited. These issues are incredibly complicated.

@NoTeaForMe

I've been thinking about this for a while. I fell pregnant easily with both my children and can't imagine living with infertility. For the surrogates out there-did you struggle with the baby not being yours?

What can you do as a surrogate to protect yourself? You do hear horror stories in the press, like of the mother not wanting the baby as it's not perfect, what if the family change once you're pregnant? I don't know there's potential for a lot to go wrong, or it feels like it.

Hi NoTeaForMe. Thanks so much for thinking about this. You're amazing! I am sure there are surrogates who can give you their input but our experience is that there are some surrogates who have had no problems conceiving their own children but we do have surrogates who haven't had great pregnancies whilst being pregnant with their own children! This is pretty amazing when you think that they then go on to do this for someone else.

For our intended parents, having a child is something that they can only dream of - if they could carry the pregnancy safely themselves they would. You are right that you need to think through key decisions like what happens if the baby has birth defects or even Downs - but ultimately the baby is a much wanted baby and intended parents love the baby as their own. Sitting down with your intended parents right at the outset to discuss this is critical so your views and expectations are aligned.

@YonicScrewdriver

Do you think the law in this country should change to allow payment for surrogacy, not just expenses?

I think this is a tricky one but overall, yes, I do. I just feel that it is too much to ask someone to do this for free. Also (and I'm getting a bit controversial here) I think that if a man was going to carry a baby he'd make sure he was being paid. Some how women are expected to be noble and selfless and do things for no money. Also, in terms of our relationship with our surrogate, I wanted her to be paid. What she did for us was so amazing. I can't ever probably thank her. A million pounds would not be enough. But I'm glad that she got some things she wanted out of the whole thing. Otherwise the relationship between us would just be so unequal.

@QOD

In the UK DNA is often used. My social worker (sore point) went on and on in her report about dd looking the image if dh and the court didn't order them for us.

I have a question ré the £10 000 expenses .... how can that NOT be payment? We paid true expenses and it was around £2 000

I guess it depends on what the definition expenses is.... and there isn't one. Some people take expenses to mean actual out of pocket costs related directly to the pregnancy, others include holidays and relaxation, others include an element of inconvenience or discomfort. There are no official guidelines on what is allowed, and no set figures.

It's not illegal to pay a surrogate under UK law, so this whole issue only gets tested by the family court when they are deciding whether to make a parental order sorting out the parenthood issues. And of course by that stage the court is concerned with protecting the child, and so in practice payments of any amount have always been authorised.

@QOD

Yes there is. We topped up the 10% of salary the 6 weeks she was off and bought clothing etc and paid for extra childcare and food and bills. I know it was 17 odd yrs ago but I, even in my posit ion, think £10 000 is actual payment on the other hand, if done for strangers etc why the hell.should.someone not get compensation for discomfort, pain and stretch marks? I'm very conflicted. Can you tell ?

Totally agree. We need more clarity about this (or at least honesty that the law does allow payments for discomfort over and above actual expenses).

It is critical that regardless of whether you use an agency go go independent that you research thoroughly and get to know your surrogate/IPs for at least several months before any attempt at ttc even happens. This is a good time period for getting to know each other, discussing everything like abortions, abnormalities, reduction etc as well as building a relationship and using the time to carry out checks like dbs and std/stir checks etc

@Rufus200

Hi

I wanted to know when a review of surrogacy laws was going to take place? My understanding is that currently in the UK the surrogate can be no biological relation to the child but can legally claim it as their own and refuse to sign the child over to the biological parents. I find this a very frightening prospect for anyone looking at surrogacy as an option! I also don't understand why the surrogate's husband is put on the birth certificate as the father even though they are not genetically related and obviously have not had any physical involvement in the pregnancy.

Natalie would be better placed than I am to name a date. There is clearly a lot of debate but I'm not sure it will happen any time soon. This is a great shame as the existing laws are not fit for purpose. That is really beyond question (as some of the points you make show). However, the complication is - if the law is changed then will it make surrogacy here easier or not? I do think it is unacceptable for the UK not to tackle this issue. What happens is the problem is simple exported. Strange comparison but it is the same with 'right to die' issues. Because the UK won't take a position people go to Switzerland. I don't really mind what the government decides but I think it should take a position. Also I just want there to be proper debate about what is, of course, a very complex issue.

If payment was allowed, Do you think pre birth orders must come first? I fear that by allowing payment people who shouldn't and wouldn't do it otherwise will do it because of the payment? Eg I think there would be more horror stories.