Webchat, Tuesday 22 September, 1-2pm: What do you want to know about surrogacy?

[RachelMumsnet]

Come and join our webchat on Tuesday, 22 September (1-2pm), in which three people will share their experiences of, and expertise on, the subject of surrogacy.

Alice Jolly is a novelist, playwright and creative writing teacher. Her memoir, Dead Babies and Seaside Towns is an honest account of her experience of surrogacy. After the stillbirth of her second child, five miscarriages and a stalled attempt at adoption, surrogacy was Alice's final chance to have a second child. Commercial surrogacy illegal in Britain, so she and her husband faced a series of moral, emotional and legal obstacles before finding a woman in the US willing to carry their child. Her book offers a glimpse into a little-known, often misrepresented world.

Helen Prosser is a leading UK expert on surrogacy. Her team at non-profit agency Brilliant Beginnings supports parents and surrogates in the UK, and helps UK parents navigate the complex road of international surrogacy, as well as campaigning for change. She's a member of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority's National Donation Strategy Group, and a former trustee of the National Gamete Donation Trust.

Solicitor Natalie Gamble specialises in UK fertility law. Her team at Natalie Gamble Associates has represented more than 400 parents starting families through surrogacy, and has campaigned for years to improve the law. Natalie was named in the Independent on Sunday's Pink List as one of the UK's 100 most influential gay people, and as the Times Lawyer of the Week.

Put your questions to Alice, Natalie and Helen at 1pm on Tuesday - or if you're unable to join us then, post your questions in advance on this thread.

Hello there

Really looking forward to hearing from you and answering any queries or questions! Looks like there's already been some really interesting thoughts as well as some amazing surrogates out there.

Helen

Alice, Natalie and Helen are now with us and will get through as many of your questions over the next hour. Thanks for joining us and welcome to mumsnet..

I think that the concerns you raise here are very real. We were very lucky to be able to afford to go to the States. We know our egg donor and our surrogate. This is important to us. They are not culturally so very different from us. I would have been very worried if my daughter could never meet these women.

@Ana27

My question is about the later impact on children who have been born as a result of these international commercial arrangements esp where there is a significant disparity in wealth culture etc between the birth mother and intended parents. Has there been much research on this or is it too recent a development?

I know that there has been research at Cambridge e.g. which has looked at children up to 10 and shown some increase in adjustment problems but not outside the normal range. However, much of this research seems to be families who have used a domestic surrogate and have often kept in touch. I can imagine that it will be much more difficult for children who were born to an unknown woman from a very different culture and in a potentially exploitative arrangement. Presumably it is much more unlikely that there will be any future contact in these cases too (language barrier, illiteracy etc).

Thanks

I think Helen can answer this better than I can but I'd just like to say - hooray for you! Thank you. You are considering changing a woman's life. That's an amazing thing to think about doing. Good luck.

@gemmalives1980

I'd love to be a surrogate but I don't really understand how to go about it. How can I become a surrogate without being at risk?

@YonicScrewdriver

Do you think the law in this country should change to allow payment for surrogacy, not just expenses?

I think it's more about clarifying what's allowed. There is no definition of expenses and it creates a lot of confusion. In practice the courts routinely authorise payments for inconvenience and discomfort (often within a round sum of £15,000 in the UK, or more overseas). There is a longstanding myth that it's illegal to pay a surrogate which isn't strictly true. I think the law should be more honest about what is permitted in practice so everyone can be upfront about it.

Where we do need legal change is in providing a framework and structure which will recognise the right people as the parents from birth, where there is no dispute. That's the big issue on legal reform.

Alice can I ask whether you looked into uk surrogates before looking abroad. What made your mind up to go abroad?

makingmiracles - by at risk I mean being taken advantage of and making sure I would be helping people that I would get along with.

@PatrickJaneIsRedJohn

I think they should be a tremendous amount more legislation around the donor egg and surrogate market.

Poorer women, from developing countries are selling their eggs and in the case of surrogacy, their babies, to afford to eat. How is there a justification for that?

I don't agree at all with surrogates using their own eggs, and then getting 'expenses', in my mind that is pretty much baby selling.

I think you are right to be concerned about something of the things going on in developing countries. But how actually can the law in the UK affect what people do overseas. The reality is that couples can arrive at a UK airport with a baby related to one of them. What is the law going to do? Forbid them entry? Fine them? It isn't obvious. Would changing the laws in the UK to make surrogacy easier here actually stop people going abroad? I don't know but this is worth thinking about.

@Ana27

Thanks for coming in to talk about this.

I wanted to ask about international surrogacy. I am sure that there are many ethical clinics/agencies but with so much money to be made there is clearly also the potential for exploitation of the women and babies involved. For example in the past there have been reports about women being trafficked to act as surrogates, and the selling of unrelated babies under the guise of surrogacy (e.g. here and here (sorry last one is DM).

So my question is, does the UK system do anything to check the arrangements are legal/ethical or is it all left to the country where the surrogacy took place? In particular, is there any stage in the process where the baby is DNA checked to make sure that the child is who the 'parents' think/say it is e.g. when a passport is applied for, immigration or court processes?

Thanks

It's very much left to the country where the surrogacy takes place to regulate things there, and the experience varies enormously from place to place. There are some moves to look at international regulation but it's a long way off coming into force, even if an agreement could be reached at a global level. For UK parents, there are processes to follow after their child is born to get passports and to then become the legal parents at home, so things are overseen at that stage - but obviously that's at the end after things have already happened!

@gemmalives1980

I'd love to be a surrogate but I don't really understand how to go about it. How can I become a surrogate without being at risk?

Hi Gemmalives - firstly congratulations on thinking about being a surrogate. There are lots of things to think about and in the first instance its important to just gather as much information so that you are fully prepared to become a surrogate. You would need to think the impact on you and your family, what support you have around you as well as the kind of intended parents that you'd like to work with. Like everything the key is in the preparation! That way, you can have made key decisions about your surrogacy journey in a sound way. If there's any specific risk questions you have, let me know and I'll try to help.

@makingmiracles

Alice can I ask whether you looked into uk surrogates before looking abroad. What made your mind up to go abroad?

We did look at surrogacy in the UK. We were put off by the weak legal framework here. We realised that if there was a dispute we would be in a poor legal position. Also this may sound very odd but I wanted to pay. I just didn't see why someone should do such a huge thing for free. But we were lucky. We could afford to go to the US where things are much clearer and, if you want to avoid the possibilities of exploitation, you can.

Do you think a pre birth order like America has is the way to go? Don't most IPs go abroad because of the perceived lack of uk surrogates?

Is surrogacy typically considered early enough in a fertility process to be a viable option, would you say?

@Lumdeedums

As I surrogate I can assure you that 10k does not count as payment. Not even close. My husband taking 2 weeks leave for pregnancy/birth etc is £1500 or more alone. Add in my loss of earnings, clothes, travel (fuel, parking etc) convenience foods (I couldn't cook for months due to severe sickness and so had to be quick cook meals hubby cooked once home.) medication such as gaviscon, and other things I won't mention lol cost way more then you'd realise. I go to a chiropractor so I can walk as my pelvis has tilted. It's not something I'm doing for fun. The idea of anything related to the pregnancy cost wise is covered. I will not have a single penny left towards a break or anything post birth. Not one penny. This is my second surrogate pregnancy and Honestky I've never felt so awful in my life. I've had so many issues I didn't expect and it's cost a lot more than I expected. The previous pregnancy was a breeze. My expenses were less. I never expected it to be as costly as it is so I understand why pure confused but from someone who's currently 32 weeks pregnant, I promise you I needed my 10k. Lol well by the end I will anyway. But this pregnancy is a GS pregnancy not TS like last time and maybe that's the difference.

Thanks for this. It is very interesting. I'm so glad there are some surrogates participating here. Sadly the surrogates voice is often not heard in these debates. I agree with you that having a baby (whether for another woman or not) is a huge, huge thing to go through. Also you can't tell at the beginning how things will go. Some women have three easy pregnancies and then a fourth from hell. You absolutely need your £10.000 and I'm surprised anyone questions that. What you are doing is extra-ordinary and brave. On your death bed you won't be asking - what did I really contribute?

@Rufus200

Hi

I wanted to know when a review of surrogacy laws was going to take place? My understanding is that currently in the UK the surrogate can be no biological relation to the child but can legally claim it as their own and refuse to sign the child over to the biological parents. I find this a very frightening prospect for anyone looking at surrogacy as an option! I also don't understand why the surrogate's husband is put on the birth certificate as the father even though they are not genetically related and obviously have not had any physical involvement in the pregnancy.

I agree! The current laws haven't been reviewed since the 1980s and desperately need updating. The rule that the surrogate and her husband are the legal parents (even where everyone is in agreement that the baby is the intended parents') is just out of date. It would be much better to have a clear process for agreeing parenthood at the start, so the right people can go on the birth certificate if everyone is in agreement. It works like this in many US states, including the one Alice went to, and it's a much more sensible system.

I would personally say so. There are IPs out there ranging from early twenties right up to 50/60s - although most surrogates have an idea of an upper age limit for potential IPs. My IM was 48 when her son was born.

@makingmiracles

Do you think a pre birth order like America has is the way to go? Don't most IPs go abroad because of the perceived lack of uk surrogates?

People do go abroad because of the perceived lack of UK surrogates. The American system worked well for us. It was very, very clear what everyone was signing up to. There was no confusion. Our surrogate (incidentally a gestational surrogate )knew there was no way she could change her mind. That may sound tough but I know, that if I asked her, she would say that it made things easier for her. She felt a clear separation in our mind. She always said, 'I love Hope but I have never though of her as mine.'

@YonicScrewdriver

Is surrogacy typically considered early enough in a fertility process to be a viable option, would you say?

This is a very tricky one. Often women are going through a slow and difficult process of letting go of an idea that they had about what a family is .... and how one is made. Looking back, after my first disastrous labour, I wish a doctor had said to me, 'Don't do this again. You are no good at it. You had one living child. Count yourself lucky and consider other options.' But maybe I couldn't have accepted it then. I do have to say that personally I am pretty down on the IVF industry (and it is an industry). They promise so much they can't deliver. But then many people owe their children to IVF. Who can say?

@makingmiracles

Do you think a pre birth order like America has is the way to go? Don't most IPs go abroad because of the perceived lack of uk surrogates?

Yes! We speak to intended parents every day who go abroad because they are so anxious about the lack of legal protection here in the UK. In fact, where things are set up in the right way and there is a strong relationship between the parents and the surrogate, it is incredibly rare for there to be a dispute. But if we had a clearer legal system here in the UK, it would support everyone better, encourage parents to stay in the UK, and encourage amazing women to come forward to be surrogates.

so it was mainly because of the fact a uk surrogate could change her mind?

It is so very sad to see that amongst thousands of successful journeys the one or two isolated cases where that has happened in the uk continue to spread such unease and mistrust. :(

@SeaMagic

Thank you for arranging this web chat, fascinating subject.

I would like to understand more about the legalities of surrogacy in the UK versus the situation in other places, i.e. the US

Also how do you make contact with a possible surrogate in the UK and what contract is required/advised, how much can a surrogate be paid or compensated financially?

Also am very interested to hear about the experience of surrogates and those requiring or considering surrogacy.

Hi SeaMagic - thanks for your post. Natalie can help with the legalities here in the UK and the legal framework if you go abroad.

There are lots of ways that you can find a surrogate here in the UK - there are 3 non-profit making organisations (Brilliant Beginnings, Surrogacy UK and COTS) who can all help. That said, there is a general shortage of surrogates (and this is the really frustrating thing about the UK as there isn't a specific time frame where you can find a surrogate) The way each organisation match is slightly different so its worth checking each out and seeing which way works best for you. There are also Facebook sites as well as other global sites - like anything you just want to make sure you take care to get to you know your surrogate and can form an open trust based relationship with her (and her husband or partner if she has one). You want to make sure that you are as aligned in your key decisions so that everyone is on the same page. And put that in writing.

Expenses can be tricky - surrogates typically receive expenses of around £10,000 - £15,000. Again making sure everyone is clear about what expenses are being covered as well as the timings of payments is important - again put it in writing!

If you can do this, it is a really amazing relationship for everyone!

I've been thinking about this for a while. I fell pregnant easily with both my children and can't imagine living with infertility. For the surrogates out there-did you struggle with the baby not being yours?

What can you do as a surrogate to protect yourself? You do hear horror stories in the press, like of the mother not wanting the baby as it's not perfect, what if the family change once you're pregnant? I don't know there's potential for a lot to go wrong, or it feels like it.

@Lumdeedums

Technically a surrogate is birth mother and has rights but the only (1 out of 890 odd surrogate births I know of) time a surro tried to keep baby, she was taken to court and the child removed from her care and given to the rightful parents. This was even a TS baby. However technically you're right. A surrogate, GS or TS can claim baby as their own but it really doesn't happen often as our worst nightmare as surrogates is being left with a baby.

You are right. Although people talk about surrogates having a 'right' to keep the baby if they change their minds, actually it isn't that simple. There have only been 3 reported cases in the UK of this kind of dispute after surrogacy and in all of them the family court has to decide what is in the child's best interests. In two cases, the intended parents were given care of the child.

I always stress to people that this is very rare, and that you can minimise your risk of problems considerably by going into things thoroughly and clearly at the outset, and building a strong relationship with your surrogate.

Surrogates also worry about being left holding the baby, although again that is incredibly rare.

I have dealt with hundreds of surrogacy situations and can count on one hand the arrangements where there were serious problems. In most, the parents and surrogate are united in a common goal and it's a fantastically empowering team venture for everyone involved - resulting in some very lucky children!

For those thinking of surrogacy, if you choose to go with an agency please please do your research, some are less nice than others. Google the people in charge, find out as much as you can about fees etc and go on Fb and join surrogacy groups, within the surrogacy circle it is well known which are good and which are best avoided!!

@Ana27

Thanks for coming in to talk about this.

I wanted to ask about international surrogacy. I am sure that there are many ethical clinics/agencies but with so much money to be made there is clearly also the potential for exploitation of the women and babies involved. For example in the past there have been reports about women being trafficked to act as surrogates, and the selling of unrelated babies under the guise of surrogacy (e.g. here and here (sorry last one is DM).

So my question is, does the UK system do anything to check the arrangements are legal/ethical or is it all left to the country where the surrogacy took place? In particular, is there any stage in the process where the baby is DNA checked to make sure that the child is who the 'parents' think/say it is e.g. when a passport is applied for, immigration or court processes?

Thanks

I think there are many complicated ethical and legal questions surrounding international surrogacy. In theory, if you bring a surrogate baby into this country you should have to go to the High Court to get a parental order so things will be checked very carefully. But in reality I'm sure there are people who aren't doing that. We knew our daughter was ours because we were there at the birth. We were offered a DNA check but we declined. Our surrogate Mum is anyway gay so it was hardly likely that the father wasn't my husband. With the DNA check I think our attitude was - she's here, we love here, she's part of our family, she's going home with us. But the US is really very, very different to other parts of the world. What goes on there is generally very highly regulated (although not always). I do share your concerns about the exploitation of poor and desperate women. But then equally, given what I have lived through and seen, I feel reluctant to say judgemental things about women who are so desperate ..... Sorry not to give a clean, clear cut answer. I feel we need a really good international framework but I'm not sure that is coming soon.