Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

Kate, please will you be open about where you personally stand on this issue?

@rhinoceer

In short the "Nordic model" aka "Swedish model" makes purchase of sexual services illegal but not the selling of sexual services. It is used in Sweden, Norway and Iceland.

It may sound good in theory but there is much debate on the topic.

cybersolidaires.typepad.com/files/jaylevy-impacts-of-swedish-criminalisation-on-sexworkers.pdf

Some critics include difficulty to enforce; since the law was implemented in Sweden condoms are no longer given out to prostitutes or clients; some prostitutes have been evicted and made homeless (even though selling sex per se is not a crime, it is a crime to for a flat/home to be used to sell sex).

Sweden have noted street prostitution has fallen significantly since the law was implemented in 1999, however this may also be because this was around the time internet for everyday households took off and therefore meant some prostitution changed from the street to online bookings.

Hi rhinoceer,

You've raised some really interesting questions about the Swedish model, and we'll be looking at the research on this as our consultation continues. I think it is worth pointing out that in Sweden, there is a good functioning legal system and police force that can mostly be held to account. We're going to be looking at this issue globally, and our members and colleagues in Africa, Asia and Latin America have different experiences of legal systems and of policing. So it's not automatically certain to me that the Swedish model translates globally.

I'd also like to see an answer to Beachcomber's question of 20:37:38 yesterday.

So how are you going to resolve this before April? What position will you take in the "debate"?

Also agree that to describe sex (do you mean PIV?) as a 'need' sounds very rapey and misogynistic considering the societal context of male domination and girls and women as lower status in a binary sex hierarchy.

I am still baffled that here you talk about the sex workers who should be protected , but in your document you talk about the purchasers whose "needs" should be acknowledged and decriminalised. Why does the document not reflect what you are saying here?

Kate, thanks for your answer, but you avoided my main question. Have punters who have sex with a trafficked or forced person committed a crime of rape?

Kate, do you understand just how much both this disastrous "draft" policy, and the obfuscation around it (nobody believes pimp orgs weren't involved in drafting it) have damaged Amnesty's goodwill? People (inc me) who have supported Amnesty for decades are now seriously mistrustful of how Amnesty operates (and pretty heartbroken about it).

@FloraFox

Kate

Can you confirm that you have consulted with survivors' groups? Many survivor groups have questioned whether AI have done this and no survivor groups have said they were consulted.

Hi FloraFox

Our global research HQ consulted a range of groups across Latin America, Asia and Africa. This contains dozens of sex worker groups and dozen more women's rights groups who work at international, regional and domestic level. Here in the UK we're finalising our consultation at the moment but it will definitely include those representing sex workers and women's rights groups.

We are more than 20 minutes into this webchat and so far I don't see how you have engaged in the difficult questions we, any many other women, care about. We know about AI's record on trafficking, we know you oppose rape. This looks a lot like flanneling so far. You have answered two patsy questions from possible punter rhinoceer. Please engage with the issues we are raising here.

I don't see any contradiction with what Kate is saying and the draft paper.

I asked about survivor's groups. They would not describe themselves as "sex workers".

what Doorkeeper said, exactly.

I was a member of Amnesty for many decades. No longer.

We're going to be looking at this issue globally, and our members and colleagues in Africa, Asia and Latin America have different experiences of legal systems and of policing. So it's not automatically certain to me that the Swedish model translates globally.

Son in the case of women from third world countries where they are more likely to be abused you think legalizing the abuse makes more sense?

"Those representing sex workers" - you mean pimps?

Can you please answer Vegetarian's question of 10.21am?

Keeping in mind the different ages for consent around the world does Amnesty have a specific age in mind for worldwide acceptance of prostitution? I believe 14 is the age of consent in Austria, would men be allowed to pay a 14 year old for sex there if they accepted your model?

Hi Kate

One of Amnesty's slogans is "Protect the Human" How does this policy fit in with this? If you accept the vast amount of research done by Amnesty itself that prostitution is damaging to women, how can you square that particular circle? Or are you implying that sex workers and, by extension any woman or child at risk of traficking, isn't actually 'human'?

Kate, how will you determine which "sex worker" organisations have legitimacy and authority in this subject? And will you - as FloraFox has asked - be consulting with survivor organisations, which are quite different?

Kate, are you not aware that the 'sex is a need' formulation was used for many years to justify marital rape and is still used in many abusive relationships to justify abuse?

It is a dangerous claim to make and I am utterly, utterly appalled to see it in an Amnesty policy document stated as fact, draft or not.

@Bindelj

Kate, if this was an early stage consultation document then why does it only present a one-sided argument that is heavily leaning towards decriminalising pimps, punters and brothel owners? Why did the document not contain an alternative way forward so members could see all the options? And why were there no questions at the end of the document for consultees? I think you lied, and that the document would have been slipped through as policy had I not leaked it.

Hi Bindelj,

Our plans for consultation were well in progress before the article in The Daily Mail. When we get to our AGM in April, our members will have the results of that consultation here in the UK and they will have a range of options that they can vote on. Where we are at the moment is very importantly gathering our own members' views, and consulting very widely. We'll pull all of that together for our AGM here in the UK. We'll be very interested to know what our colleagues in other parts of the world are thinking. We'll pull all of that together in the way that Amnesty has done on many occasions, on many controversial issues, to find the best way that we can globally protect the human rights of some very vulnerable people.

I'm sorry you think I lied, but I can categorically tell you I haven't. This policy was one that we were always going to consult our members on.

So many questions would not need to be asked if people had actually read the draft... :(

I'm concerned about the notion that AI will take a global approach to prostitution which will affect women across the world, based on an assumption that law enforcement agencies in some countries may not be able or willing to enforce the Swedish model! Do you take that view on any other form of torture? That it won't be enforced by torture regimes therefore you will adapt your policies worldwide based on what those regimes will do? Shouldn't AI be advocating for the model that all countries should adopt?

Why has rhinoceer had two (easy!) questions answered?

Kate you said but it will definitely include those representing sex workers and women's rights groups.

Can you confirm that you will be including exited women and survivors groups? (Which was the question after all - many exited women do not want to be termed 'sex workers').

This proposed policy implies that survivors of prostitution who are profoundly opposed to legalisation are liars or misguided.

How comfortable do you feel calling women who describe what they experienced as repeated sexual violation, liars or misguided?

How does doing so fit with your wider agenda?

@EmpressOfTheWellOfLostPlots

Are you really equating the right for LGBT couples to have sex with the right for people to buy sex? As a lesbian on a civil partnership do you appreciate why I find that insulting?

Hi Empress

I'm sorry if my answer was a bit clumsy. What I was trying to draw attention to was how we need to be cautious about how the state is involved in consensual sexual relations. That was the point I was trying to make. For sex workers in many parts of the world we hear that because they are criminalised their ability to have justice is compromised but again these are the issues we're consulting on.