Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

[sonjdol]

Well, it seems to me that I am definitely not the only one here with what you call an "agenda". If you considere all clients abusers, then there is no criterion anymore to differentiate between those who are violent and those who are not. Those who engage in consensual sex work and those who do not. It is as if we would legally define all sex as rape. But that obviously is nonsense.

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

I don't see how LGBT is anyway on par with prostitution?

Surely it's exactly the same as heterosexual notn commercial sex? Which is already legal through out the world?

[sonjdol]

Kate, since sex workers (those, who are not victims of trafficking) would be directly affected by any policy on sex work, what is your stance on listening to their positions and views?

[FairPhyllis]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Kate. Sex with another person is not a human need. It is a human want. Nobody's genitals ever fell off because they didn't get a shag.

[Grennie]

Thank you for the answer kate. I understand why you have to ask those organisations permission. I hope you get it. Because members fears such as mine, are that you worked with pimp sponsored organisations. There are a few about and the policy is written from the pov ofa pimp, not of the wwomen involved.

[FloraFox]

Not a question. I think it is disgusting to conflate gay and lesbian sex with a man purchasing another person's body for his sexual gratification. Also, you are ignoring the fact that AI said it state interference with a "person" unwilling to obtain sex by "traditional" means may be a violation of their right to privacy, health and expression.

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@rhinoceer

I think it's fair users registered before this thread was created should have a chance to post a Q, that way we won't have people signing up just to ask a Q. And I think it's fair both sides of the debate including those in support of Amnesty's stance should be included.

My question for Amnesty is what do you have to say to allegations that you work with "pimps" for financial gain? Can you clarify if this is your main motive for wanting decriminalization or is your main motive to make sex work/prostitution safer?

Hi Rhinoceer

We don't work with pimps for financial gain or for any other reason. One of the many brilliant things about AI is that our members pay their subs and that pays for our human rights work.

So here in the UK 225,000 pay their subs and that gives us huge independence which we guard very jealousy. Our motivation is completely about how we as Amnesty can best protect the human rights of some incredibly vulnerable women and men around the world.

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

Kate, I know Amnesty has done good work on fighting trafficking in the past. Do you now have resources allocated to increase the amount you will spend on this in the future as a result of the vast increase in trafficking that will inevitably result from legalisation? Or are you just going to accept that years of work by your organisation will be undermined?

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@JugglingFromHereToThere

I was interested to see your stand on this as I have huge respect for Amnesty (and am a member). I feel it may be something like the argument for the de-criminalisation of drugs - we don't necessarily advocate drug taking or prostitution, but we feel more harm is being done through making these activities illegal. And there are issues of liberty around each of them too.
I wonder if you'd like to comment on this thought?

Hi JugglingFromHereToThere,

Thank you for kind words about Amnesty. As you know, we are a global organisation with offices and members in 80 different countries around the world. You’ve touched on the core of what we are consulting on at the moment: how do we protect the human rights of those engaged in sex work? Is it through criminalisation or decriminalisation? It is a massively controversial issue here in the UK. Our members here and in Africa, Asia, and Latin America have very strong and different views so it’s great to be a part of this conversation.

[EmpressOfTheWellOfLostPlots]

Are you really equating the right for LGBT couples to have sex with the right for people to buy sex? As a lesbian on a civil partnership do you appreciate why I find that insulting?

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Hi Kate. That's good to see you acknowledge that "it's going to be a very lively consultation and we're going to learn a huge amount from it"
I hope you'll find your morning here on Mumsnet helpful in taking things forward (some wise and articulate women here I think you'll find).

A very important consultation too, with consequences for thousands of vulnerable women and girls around the world.

[KateAllenAmnestyInternational]

@basgetti

So in your response to mogara's question, are you saying that clients who rape trafficked women shouldn't be prosecuted? By the fact that you failed to answer that part I guess so.

Amnesty are very clear, anyone involved in rape should be prosecuted.

[LatinForTelly]

Hello Kate,

Very interested in the answer to Beachcomber's question of 20:37:38 last night. Thanks.

[Mitchy1nge]

hi Kate

if we frame this human need for sex into a human right to it, might AUK consider at least debating the possible benefits of nationalising the sex industry so that it's not only free at the point of access but workers also can enjoy some pension rights, maternity leave and funding towards meeting cpd requirements and so on?

[FrothyDragon]

Sex is not a human 'need' at all. That view borders on rape apologia, and was part of the view that excused marital rape until its criminalisation. It's a human desire, but you can bloody well survive without sex

[Beachcomber]

Kate , do you consider consent that has been purchased to be in any way problematic and does payment, providing of drugs or shelter, etc constitute coercion?

Also agree with FloraFox's comment WRT lesbain and gay sex being conflated with prostitution. How insulting.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

And thank you for answering my criminalisation/de-criminalisation question above

[Grennie]

Criminalisation is different from legalisation though. The choice isn't just criminalisation or decriminalisation. Decriminalisation means no protection at all for women from pimps.

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

Amnesty are very clear, anyone involved in rape should be prosecuted.

How are punters to know which women choose to involved in sex work and who are being trafficked? They can't, so they can't be prosecuted surely?

[BelleOfTheBorstal]

When I was working as an escort/prostitute at the age of seventeen, I would have consented to have sex with roughly about one in ten of the men, without the financial component of the transaction.
i.e if it were not for the fact that I was being paid, I would not have engaged in sexual relations with nine out of the ten men that paid for my services.
Is consent that is paid for, truly consent?

[TL12345]

Do you think consent can be bought? How might this affect what we teach young people about consent and the importance of women's desire?

[Bindelj]

Kate, if this was an early stage consultation document then why does it only present a one-sided argument that is heavily leaning towards decriminalising pimps, punters and brothel owners? Why did the document not contain an alternative way forward so members could see all the options? And why were there no questions at the end of the document for consultees? I think you lied, and that the document would have been slipped through as policy had I not leaked it.

[FloraFox]

If you were concerned about the human rights of women in prostitution, why is the entirety of women's experience of abuse, mental health, poverty, lack of opportunity, addiction and violence reduced to two words: "imperfect context"? What exactly are the human rights engaged here?

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

Sex is not a need, and sex with other people certainly isn't.

[ALittleStranger]

Is AI still a member of the End Violence Against Women coalition? Have you discussed this with the coalition and will you be resigning if this policy is adopted?