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WEBCHAT GUIDELINES: 1. One question per member plus one follow-up. 2. Keep your question brief. 3. Don't moan if your question doesn't get answered. 4. Do be civil/polite. 5. If one topic or question threatens to overwhelm the webchat, MNHQ will usually ask for people to stop repeating the same question or point.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

616 replies

KatieMumsnet · 03/02/2014 11:27

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm
OP posts:
VegetariansTasteLikeChicken · 04/02/2014 18:23

hen when will Amnesty International give the same platform to listen to the voices of sex workers. The anti's do silence us everywhere in the media, and they refuse to even debate the issues with us. Since they are trying to create policy that directly effects us, should't be be apart of their conversation. I find it OFFENSIVE that the anti's are allowed to call us TROLL just because we support sex worker rights.

NO I am calling you a troll because you have joined a site that has nothing to do with you (and you don't seem to even realise isn't in the USA) purely to push an agenda. You know, like trolls do. If you want Amnesty UK to give you the same platform I would expect you to ask them for one yourself and ask them when they will give you a platform. If you did arrange for a group of sex workers to discuses their concerns with them I'd think it was really shit of a bunch of Mumsnetters to jump on in and take over the conversation.

WhentheRed · 04/02/2014 18:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 04/02/2014 18:27

I see that MN have put the "sex as a human need" on the front page. What the fuck are AI thinking? Whoever died of lack of sex??

vesuvia · 04/02/2014 18:33

Kate from AI wrote - "what I was saying about the swedish model which does criminalise the punters, and whether that model will work to support he human rights of sex workers in an environment where the police and criminal justice system are not of the same standard as the Swedish system. Our consultation is about a worldwide policy, not just UK, or Europe, what would work to protect a women living in the slums of Nairobi from a brutal and corrupt police force."

Decriminalising the buying of sexual consent by pimps and punters will not protect prostitutes from police abuse and corruption, one of the reasons being that, in many countries, the police are pimps and punters.

vesuvia · 04/02/2014 18:40

If the policemen who are pimps and punters were criminalised under the Nordic model for being pimps and punters, perhaps that would go some way to ridding police forces of the policemen who abuse prostitutes.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 04/02/2014 18:50

BellaRobinson, can I ask how you know about this site, and found out about this webchat?

Sex worker advocates are hardly being silenced - they seem to have the willing ear of Kate Allen for a start.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 04/02/2014 19:01

Btw BellaRobinson - you should also know that this is a website for predominantly for parents. Mumsnet is not an "anti" platform - we are all individuals on an on-line forum with our own views.

MNHQ were totally right to keep this webchat for mumsnet regular users, rather than turn it over to people joining up to spout their agenda.

enlightenmequick · 04/02/2014 19:03

" If you want Amnesty UK to give you the same platform I would expect you to ask them for one yourself and ask them when they will give you a platform. If you did arrange for a group of sex workers to discuses their concerns with them I'd think it was really shit of a bunch of Mumsnetters to jump on in and take over the conversation."

^ this ^

BriarRainbowshimmer · 04/02/2014 19:07

Someone must have linked tt MN from an US site and sent pro-prostitution people here, people who don't understand what site they're on.
Calling us "guys" pffft yes everyone here is an American man.

Deeply disappointed by the answers in this webchat. In fact I'm really angry. Sex is a human need huh. Something men need to buy. And men buying women is the same as lesbians having sex with each other...?

If you want to protect prostitutes but don't want to support men buying and selling women supporting the Swedish Model is a no-brainer.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 04/02/2014 19:13

as the anti's are the biggest PIMPS of all, making their entire living promoting violence against sex workers. To the tune of hundreds of millions ea h year in funding.

...Has to be the strangest thing I've ever read on this topic.

It's the pimps and the sex traffickers that make the money out of prostitution. It's the pimps, the sex traffickers and the punters that are violent to prostitutes.

JuliaScurr · 04/02/2014 19:18

there are criticisms of the Swedish Model. Could they be answered by having a dedicated specially trained unit staffed by women officers to report abuse and properly funded exit facilities? And no pressure on women

JacqueslePeacock · 04/02/2014 19:40

My God, this was a depressing experience wasn't it. All flannel and obfuscation. As a longtime AI supporter I feel thoroughly disillusioned. Even the questions Kate "answered" she didn't actually answer. What a waste of time.

rhinoceer · 04/02/2014 19:56

@Sab"rhinoceer, "Douglas Fox doesn't agree although I'm prepared to accept he may be suffering from delusions of grandeur."

Douglas Fox commented on the page you linked to on his Twitter feed on Feb 1st implying it was either false or words had been twisted.

quote:"Well if I had actually said any of this Lol.. Still. Shows how they twist stuff."

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 04/02/2014 20:02

Fucking hell what a shower of shite! I'm glad now that I didn't rearrange things to be here for this webchat. I was very much hoping to be reassured on AI's stance but I'm not. At all.

Sex is a need? Really? How on earth have women managed for so long without a vast market full of men to buy? How do the majority of men - the decent ones who don't pay for sex - manage when they're not in a relationship?

I am fucking cross Angry

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 04/02/2014 20:09

And the IUSW, rhinoceer? Who are the sex worker advocates that are advising AI on this policy?

Here's doorkeeper's question for you again, as you seem to have missed it:

Do you care to name the "sex worker organisations" which you think do legitimately represent workers? Because I can't think of any which haven't already been discredited as either being run by pimps and open to punters, or mostly founded and run by people who have never worked in the industry at all.

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken · 04/02/2014 20:23

Sex is a human need huh

Exactly. Someone doesn't understand the difference between need and urge, I think. She actually said it's not a "right" it's a need (as though that was better). A right is something everyone "should" be able to have for a good life. A need is something you have to keep you alive surely? Angry

I need food, I need water, I need clean air. I don't need readily available people to have sex with me,

aformersexworker · 04/02/2014 20:26

This is, in my experience, 100% true:
"When when will Amnesty International give the same platform to listen to the voices of sex workers. The anti's do silence us everywhere in the media, and they refuse to even debate the issues with us. Since they are trying to create policy that directly effects us, should't be be apart of their conversation. I find it OFFENSIVE that the anti's are allowed to call us TROLL just because we support sex worker rights."

C'mon, how many actual sex workers are you hearing from - COUNT THEM?

I have been at the coal face, running headlong into unofficial press embargos (if I had a pound for every article written by a sane, friendly journalist that got spiked higher up I would be a very happy puppy). I have been the one who had to find work arounds for the Machiavellian maneuvers aimed at excluding the voices of real sex workers from all media and consultation...only to find that just when I thought I got SOMEONE in they were, in fact covertly affiliated to the antis AND organised crime (who LOVE any form of criminalisation BTW because, for them, it is an opportunity to make MORE MONEY).

Sex workers are only allowed to speak if it is "happy hooker" sensationalism, or "misery memoirs" for the antis (and, in the case of the latter nobody even bothers to check if they were ever really sex workers, they just get carried shoulder high while the money rolls in to them). NOBODY is allowed to tell simple truths like:

  • Sex work is about a sex workers right to make money, not anyone's right to sex.
  • The Nordic model is about attacking sex workers by attacking the market they depend on, because even capital criminalisation has failed to "end prostitution" because wherever you have a mum looking at hungry children with no options let and there is a market for sex there will always be one who has her priorities straight even with her life at risk.
  • Sadly, there are always more women who need, or want the money badly enough to sell sex than there is money to go around. You may have ended poverty and desperation on your planet, but here, on planet earth, we are not even close.
  • Scratch the surface and under 75% of sex workers you will find someone who has already been failed abysmally and often badly damaged by social services NGOs etc who do not understand her situation and have nothing appropriate to offer her past present or future. She has a basic human right to prefer selling sex to more of the same however much better it would make you feel..
  • If a woman sells sex because she needs the money to survive and you take her market away she will cease to survive.
  • The merits of education and/or counselling based upon denying all the above reality along with a whole lot more are limited at best.

This is absolutely true too:

"as the anti's are the biggest PIMPS of all, making their entire living promoting violence against sex workers. To the tune of hundreds of millions each year in funding."

The conservative right and the radical left are pouring multimillions into abolitionism.

A lot of those campaigning most vocally are getting salaries over £100k JUST FOR CAMPAIGNING (unless you count ensuring real sex workers are silenced, gagged and talked over as work):

  • Its great PR
  • It offers multiple indirect backhanded opportunities to deny that recession is real and that austerity can have devastating impact
  • It is a brilliant excuse for imposing control on other people and telling yourself that you are superior to them.
  • It is a great distraction from the brutality of austerity. People LOVE any for of sanctified witchhunt.
  • It is an outlet for the sexually conservative backlash that was inevitable as a byproduct of the usual paradigm pendulum swing combined with the onset of AIDS after the permissive 60s

...on the other hand, sex workers started selling sex to make money, not to become political activists. Many of those who have taken over the "voice of sex work" have nearly as many alterior motives as the antis, but, thankfully, do not get paid anything like as much.

Being honest, I do not feel this is an issue anyone should be discussing at all until sex workers, and REAL former sex workers ("exit" is a euphemism for euthanasia and NOBODY should be using it in this context - EVER) have had all the say they need.

I am a real former sex worker, I hated it, but I thank the heavens there was a market where I could sell sex, because there is no way I could have survived otherwise, and I think all women have a moral right to that option WITHOUT laws that attack the market so the only way you can make money at all is by turning yourself out like a movie star, offering services I would blush to name, and ALL without a condom and cheaper than anyone else...because THAT is where the "Nordic Model" really leads...while making sex workers, unsafe, destitute and homeless along the way.

Everything else is just high rent horsesh*t.

BellaRobinson · 04/02/2014 20:49

Yes I do agree that sex work is like any other job, yet its the only job OTHERS try to take away "our right to agency" and "our labor rights." Sex worker rights people are NOT sponsored by pimps, most USA sex workers are independent escorts, and since the trafficking narrative insists that anyone a sex work knows is a pimp, well I guess the world is full of pimps, but those (the anti's) making their livings off OUR cause are the biggest pimps of all. Repeating misguided information as to all sex worker activist are doing so under the direction of PIMPS is a out and right lie, as there is no factual research to even suggest this. And this is another example of how our voices are silenced and ignored and discounted.

We already have laws that deal with REAL TRAFFICKERS so once and for all, what does this have to do with consensual sex work between adults and why are the anti's promoting their agenda to abolish prostitution, even though it harms the victims and the sex workers.

To address this myth that most sex workers have been abused before they entered the sex trade, well let me ask, how many Walmart workers were abused as kids.

None of this research means anything if you do not compare it to other professions and to imply that sex workers are not ignored and silenced, why is it the anti's refuse to meet us in a public debate, why do the anti's not care that many sex workers are being robbed, raped and murders all because of this unrealistic goal to abolish prostitution. Sex workers are not going to just go away, and most of us don't want to exit in exchange for a job that pays slave wages we can't live on.

and this name calling (MRA trolls pushing an agenda.. ) is insane, as the anti's have had custody of the narrative for too long, why is it the voices of sex workers can't be heard here, as the anti trafficking narrative is heard EVERYWHERE, and fully funded to RAISE AWARENESS

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken · 04/02/2014 20:52

What the hell are you on about? Confused and where is all this money I am meant to be making by being on a British parenting forum discussing prostitution?

BriarRainbowshimmer · 04/02/2014 20:55

Since i have typed some opinions on MN, where can I get funded?

BriarRainbowshimmer · 04/02/2014 20:59

If I got paid everytime I posted an opinion on a website I would earn a lot!

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/02/2014 21:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptChaos · 04/02/2014 21:03

Well, that was a waste of effort. Almost glad now that I was unable to rearrange my day to see this whitewash as it happened.

Having said that, as we're getting funded, where do I have to submit my proposal and expenses forms?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/02/2014 21:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker · 04/02/2014 21:08

I'm a prolific poster

That'll be 50 grand please. Do you need my national insurance number ?