Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

'A lot of those campaigning most vocally are getting salaries over £100k JUST FOR CAMPAIGNING'

When someone makes something up that is as far from truth as that it makes everything else they are saying look suspect as clearly they have an elastic relationship with the truth.
Either they don't care what they make up, or else they are just very naive and being fed this stuff by the pro-pimp lobby and take it as fact.

Okay, aformersexworker, if you know so much about people's wages, please give us the names - or at least the organisational affiliations - of those who "are getting salaries over £100k JUST FOR CAMPAIGNING".

If you can't come up with concrete examples, then this, too, is horseshit.

If you've been sent here, as I suspect, by some pro-pimp lobbying group elsewhere, you may not know that most pro-prostituted-women, pro-survivor work in the UK is done voluntarily by low-paid lefty feminists, not by the big-bucks religious right.

How is it that there are people posting on this thread who are clearly not MNers? Where was this web chat publicised and by who?

Pretty sinister.

Well Bella, that was a confusing post if I ever read one.

"Why are the anti's promoting their agenda to abolish prostitution, even though it harms the victims and the sex workers".

Who are the anti's? Who are the victims? What on earth do you mean by abolishing prostitution?

"Why do the anti's not care that many sex workers are being robbed, raped and murders all because of this unrealistic goal to abolish prostitution"

Again, who are the anti's? I think you are confusing us with another bunch of people, because as far as I can see, everybody on here does care a lot about the crimes committed against prostitutes.

I thought AI's argument was more that criminalising buyers doesn't work because then sex workers have to go to unsafe places in an attempt to hide and protect their clients from prosecution ?
If both aspects were legal (selling and buying) they argued this would make things safer for sex workers (though they talked a surprising amount about the rights or needs of buyers IMHO)

Buffy, I agree with you, and have exactly the same question as you. Just because criminalising buyers is difficult to enforce because of corrupt justice systems who add to risk of prostitution, it doesn't follow that decriminalising buyers will change any of this. The corruption needs to be addressed, not the status of pimps and punters.

I'm glad it wasn't just me who couldn't follow who the ANTI's were Creeping.
I'm not anti anyone, I just hope more can be done to protect people's human rights (and especially those of women)

Alibaba - the web chat was promoted and retweeted a lot on twitter which is where a lot of the weird newbies came from I imagine.

"an elastic relationship with the truth"

Yes, this.

Here is how they get the funding and why many of the anti's are PIMPS, promoting violence against the adult community.

www.dw.de/german-feminist-alice-schwarzer-admits-to-swiss-account-then-goes-on-offensive/a-17404273

Hmm it seems they have been getting funding for decades on the backs of lies and fake victims.
bebopper76.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/sex-trafficking-fraud/

In response to "If law enforcement are so corrupt that they will use the criminalisation of women who sell sex as an excuse to abuse them, then what do AI think will happen when one of these newly decriminalised women tries to report that a punter has raped her?"

In Rhode Island when indoor sex work between consenting adults was still decriminalized we had the Craigslist killer, who murdered a Boston sex worker, and then the killer came to Rhode Island and tried to rob a sex worker. The lady dialed 911 and he was caught, so the police will have to take our complaints seriously if we are decriminalized. Its criminalization that has taken our rights and out us in the line of being a victim of violence.

Lets look at the Merseyside model, where prostitution is still illegal but the cops have been trained to take HATE CRIMES against sex workers seriously and stop focusing on arresting sex workers. They figured out that "policing sex workers is a form of violence". They immediately started locking up violent offenders. When they decriminalized in New Zealand, the also started locking up violent offenders and also start cautioning serial killers. Yet it's criminalization that promotes violence towards sex workers and doesn't yield many victims.

ruthjacobs.co.uk/2013/03/04/cry-for-the-merseyside-model-crimes-against-sex-workers-must-be-treated-as-hate-crimes-uk-wide/

Bella, do you realise this is a UK website? That you're talking to mainly people in the UK? And that Merseyside is in the UK?

None of the "abolitionists" on "100K salaries just to campaign" are here. If they exist at all. You're boxing shadows here.

Not one person on this thread has made an argument for prostitutes to be criminalised.

And I hope NZ did a bit more than caution serial killers.

I wonder if bella is emitting but not receiving ?

Bella, neither of the reports you linked to support your case. One is of a German feminist squirrelling money offshore, but even if that was anything to do with us in the UK, the report says nothing of how she earned that money.

The second was some pro-pimp wordpress site, hardly an authoritative source. I could make a wordpress site saying the exact opposite and give you the link here. It means nothing.

Time after time, these women displayed remarkable courage! Good for them This guy is just scum.

A New Jersey State correction officer must serve at least two years in prison for posing as a police officer in order to coerce four prostitutes into having free or cut-rate sex with him, following his sentencing this morning. Under an agreement with the state, S pleaded guilty to official misconduct in return for prosecutors’ recommendation that he be sentenced to five years in prison — including two before he’s eligible for parole. They also dropped several charges against him.

S, 51, of Burlington Township, also forfeits his state job and is permanently barred from public employment in New Jersey, Acting Attorney General John Hoffman. He previously had been suspended pending the outcome of the case.

A 25-count state grand jury indictment returned in July accused S of a pattern of official misconduct and four counts each of official misconduct, sexual assault, criminal restraint, coercion, extortion and impersonating a law enforcement officer.Hoffman called the actions “a complete betrayal of the trust placed in him as a public servant.”“By abusing his badge to commit these abhorrent and offensive crimes, this correction officer proved that he has no business in our state prisons — except as a prisoner,” Hoffman said.

S surrendered to authorities in April of last year after a DNA match was found from a New Jersey database of all persons arrested for violent crimes. It was the first time the state filed charges as a result of a hit against a suspect whose DNA was taken under a 2011 New Jersey law that requires the samples.

He remained free on $200,000 bail ( SEE: New charges against NJ correction officer who authorities say got off without paying prostitutes ), then was indicted (SEE: Indictment: NJ correction officer frightened four prostitutes into free sex).

S had been entered into the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) under the law requiring DNA sampling of all persons arrested for violent crimes, including sexual assault, following his previous arrest in March.

Authorities in March said S called prostitutes who offered their services only and met them at hotels in South Jersey and Philadelphia,. After using the name “Rick” or Rich”to get sex, S produced what appeared to be a law enforcement badge, frightening the women into thinking they’d be arrested. He sometimes wore handcuffs hooked to the back of his pants, as well, state authorities said at the time. S got off without paying at least four of them — and, in one instance, got a discount, they said. “Threats of arrest for personal gain – whether by an impostor, or an actual police officer – undermine the work of all law enforcement,” said New Jersey State Police Superintendent Col. Rick Fuentes, whose department made the match. S was charged that day with second-degree sexual assault and third-degree criminal restraint.

In both instances, the charges stem from work by the NJSP Official Corruption Bureau South Unit and the Division of Criminal Justice Corruption Bureau.
Authorities became aware of what was happening early last year: In that case, S met a hooker at a hotel, agreed to pay $125 for 30 minutes of sex, then flashed the phony badge and barked “stand down” into a cellphone as if he were communicating, walkie-talkie-style, they said. He then began to fondle the woman, who believed she was about to be arrested, telling her they could work it out, they said. Intercourse followed, S left without paying — and the woman went straight to local police.

State investigators said they then uncovered a string of similar incidents dating back to September 2011.

Fuentes said the New Jersey’s highly successful CODIS database contains DNA profiles from more than 250,000 convicted offenders and more than 16,500 DNA profiles from crime scene evidence. It has generated thousands of hits, solving crimes that would not have been possible without DNA technology, he said.

According to the Office of the NJ Attorney General: Deputy Attorneys General Victor R. Salgado and Valerie R. Butler prosecuted the case and took the guilty plea for the Division of Criminal Justice Corruption Bureau. The case was investigated by the New Jersey State Police and the Division of Criminal Justice, with assistance from the Department of Corrections, the Mansfield Police Department, and the Westampton Police Department.

cliffviewpilot.com/105195/

Would legalising prostitution mean that women could forced to accept to work in prostitution or risk losing their unemployment benefits?

it's simply spam really, isn't it ?

Is anybody arguing that there is no police corruption anywhere in the world ?

Of course, even if sex workers had to be respected as a matter of law, there would be abusive police officers in third world countries and even here. But laws can back corruption. Take for example cambodia and other asian countries: under pressure from the US (funding) They have changed their approach so that they focus on finding victims of trafficking and 'saving' them. However, this was not accompanied by the message to respect sex workers, so it lead to mass arrests and incarceration in modern magdalene homes (where women are subjected to slave labour, abuse and forced marriage). The law simply gave them a new tool to terrorize women. Again: some of the women were punished even harder, because they were legally coneidered pimps if they had any level of business organization. If pimping would be re-defined to its actual meaning, (exploitation of sex workers) this could not have happened legally. If the law did not pressure police to find and save 'victims', if the law required respect for womens autonomy, it wouldnt be legally possible. As i said before, change cant come overnight by suddenly demanding respect, but laws that allow restriction of womens civil rights in the name of morality or the new 'buzzword' trafficking hinder any change of attitude. I will search for the article about thisand post it later.

I agree that this is the place for mumsnet users. I'll admit i'm not one of you. However, many questions stayed unanswered because of the short time frame. I'm a sex worker of 5 years and have been a social worker for exactly those women many of you are concerned about. I'm also deeply committed to human rights, which is why i found this live chat (i googled amnesty international). Thats why i think my input here is needed, especially since there are so many prejudices against sex workers (especially those you call non-happy-hookers) here.

www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/01/19/think_again_prostitution

Here's said article. I was referring to the part under "We Should Rescue Prostitutes From Brothels."

SinaMore what you are painting as "prejudice against sex workers" is actually, for many of us, "support for sex workers and opposition to the sex industry". If it's something you freely chose, and you enjoy it, good for you, and I hope you continue to be safe. You don't need, and clearly don't want, my support, and that's fine. But I'm against the sex industry because I want to support the many, many survivors and current prostituted women and girls who didn't freely choose it, and who are deeply damaged by it.

I think you are assuming that we're all nice middle-class ladies who don't know anything about the issue, and who are opposed to prostitution because the very idea gives us the vapours. But that isn't true. I'm in this discussion, for example, because I've liked and trusted the working women I've met (IRL, not on the internet) over the years, and for none of them was prostitution a job they chose, wanted or enjoyed.

That's actually what I'm talking about. I'm not claiming all sex workers do this job because they find it fun. If you want to support women who don't like this job but have to do it, oppose policies that want to take away even the little choices they have. Oppose policies that evict them from their homes (as recently in london, soho), oppose throwing them on the streets, oppose condom-bans in massage parlours. Oppose fining and arresting women if they don't work where they're supposed to. Advocate for acceptance or former sex workers (or whatever you want to call them), so that they can get other jobs if they want to. Advocate against victims of sexual violence being deported after they've run out of their usefulness as testifyers. All these consequences are typical for regimes that want to oppose the sex industry.

If the women you've met are similar to the one's I've met, they do it because of economic necessity. What matters is the money. If you take away their income by arresting clients, disrupting their working schedule and closing their workplaces without providing a broad range of very good alternatives, you're not helping them. I'm really baffled how some people don't understand this (I'm not claiming you don't). Some want help to find other jobs, but some don't because they earn more as a sex worker. If a woman doesn't want to change her job, the solution is not to inflict economic violence on her by taking away her income. People cannot be pressured into accepting help, they need to WANT the help first. The very good alternatives (on THEIR terms) have to come first, only then can one start expecting sex workers to quit their jobs. And even then, some will not want to quit. Currently it's the other way around, people want to make the situation as bad as possible for sex workers so that they'll quit (see the comments of a swedish politician posted here before, "sex work isn't supposed to be easy, so the worse conditions because of the swedish law is a success"). Of course this doesn't work.

Ok thanks for listening, I'll go back to my life now and will not be posting anymore

So those of you who are pro buys a woman's body as a wank aid, what are your feelings to the news reports of children as young as 12 being sexually abused?

Is that ok? Cuz men need sex afterall?

What is the evidence behind AI's bold stupendous claim that people men need sex? Is there any solid research on this? I highly doubt it .

I wonder if the majority of AI members in the UK and worldwide are male or female or if it is more or less 50/50. Can anyone direct me to some stats?

Last not least, why not state that wanking is a human right? At least wanking is free and no nasty STDs are spread, which of course is a global health issue. If someone hasn't got a consenting and equal partner to shag, they are fee to have a wank and get on with their lives.

Anyways, if the genuine reason for this move by AI was to protect vulnerable women (and some men/boys), they'd promote that having a paid job or alternatively access to education and benefits are human rights.

This campaign is despicable and dangerous.

Kate Allen talks typical politicians talk and can not be trusted.