To want to settle a generation gap argument: older (female) relative is saying women had to give up work when they got married?

[Winnabella]

Got an older female relative (aunt) who gave up work when she married my uncle (now passed away). They got married in 1964. My parents got married in 1970 and my mum carried on working. My grandmother carried on working until she was in her late 70s. But my aunt goes on about how it 'wasn't acceptable' to carry on working after getting married. She's not done too badly being a SAHM but does go on a bit about the sacrifices she made. She had a cleaner and a housekeeper to do the housework and she and my uncle had 2 children. My cousins often joke about how they had to wear their pyjamas for two weeks. My aunt came round on Sunday and she went on and on about the job she did just before she got married. It is a bit like she's been stuck in time - this was nearly 50 years ago now. Was it the case that women were frowned upon in the 1960s for working if they got married; and how come my mother and grandmother seemed to hold down jobs (my mum part time after I was born and before I started school)

@GrumpyHoonMain
Are you in the UK?
Pregnant women in the UK are also entitled to free prescriptions and dental treatment. Health care is already free.
Maternity pay is a statutory benefit. Employers can and often do, top it up and do..

IT happened on a large scale whether you remember it or not. My MIL was obliged to leave her job as late as 1975 when she got married.

I’ve been in employment since 1971 and never saw an incidence of this. Or heard a friend or family member mention it. Obviously, I have only worked for a small number of employers so can’t vouch for them all.

Well, of course, even in the early seventies, quite a lot of women were already pregnant (shock, horror) when they got married, and as said, tended to give up work when they were about 6 months pregnant, which would be pretty soon after marrying!

Do you remember how the Beatles were portrayed as those nice young men next door, but they were already living with their girlfriends, but that this was kept quiet?

Ho hum, how in the late sixties/early seventies people lived with their boyfriends on the QT but had to pretend that they weren't to their parents.

This seemed to change in the early 1980s.

Very much the way. I think the only profession that this wasn't expected from was nursing.

Those that were married got to work 'part time' lol, this in reality was two hours less than full time to enable the married nurse to do the shopping and look after the home. All in those two hours a week!

In all other professions as far as I know, the woman to be married left paid employment before the wedding.

I think cooks and cleaners carried on and had their children minded by family. My grandmother had a married lady as her housekeeper in the 1960's, but she wasn't the type to be told what she could do.

My parents were working - working class if you like neither had a second-level education both left schools at 12/13.
Dad done an apprenticeship he is an intelligent man who would have done well if he'd an education, they started a family at 21.
DM done factory work, it's a sad state as it impacted us.
They managed to buy a home at 20 even if though we were piss poor growing up from paying a mortgage.

On Saturday 10 September 1966, the Fianna Fáil Education Minister, Donogh O’Malley, famously made his unauthorised speech announcing plans for free second-level education in Ireland. Free second-level education was eventually introduced in September 1967, and is now widely seen as a milestone in Irish history.

Well, of course, even in the early seventies, quite a lot of women were already pregnant (shock, horror) when they got married, and as said, tended to give up work when they were about 6 months pregnant, which would be pretty soon after marrying!

And it really was quite a lot in the 60s and 70s. So I do wonder how soon after the wedding those who had to leave work to get married had their first baby.

Free Secondary education in the UK (England and Wales only?) was brought in by the 1944 Education Act - which was also considered to be a huge milestone. This also raised the school leaving age to 15 and was implemented in 1947.

Before then it was Grammar schools for those who passed the Scholarship, or Secondary Schools in those education authorities noted for being progressive like Sheffield, but otherwise people stayed on in elementary schools.

I knew a good number of women of my mother's generation (born early 1920s) who were not allowed to take up grammar school places because they would 'only get married'.

All the women I knew of my mother's age group who married in the post war years carried on working after marriage, though some had to hide their marriage. It was expected that you gave up work early in pregnancy, not working until late in pregnancy as women did later. It was common to go back to work part time once the children were at secondary school (it was the 60s by then). Women with jobs such as cleaners could carry on around families.
I married in the 70s and I have never met anyone of my age group who had to give up work on marriage. I worked in central London so could have been different in other regions. Most women I know stayed at home for the first few years with children, then worked part time until the children were teens. Many did a more lowly job after children as those years out meant it was difficult to get back and there were still childcare issues.

@CecilyP

IT happened on a large scale whether you remember it or not. My MIL was obliged to leave her job as late as 1975 when she got married.

I’ve been in employment since 1971 and never saw an incidence of this. Or heard a friend or family member mention it. Obviously, I have only worked for a small number of employers so can’t vouch for them all.

And again, it happened whether you remember it or not. Stop being so self absorbed!

o you remember how the Beatles were portrayed as those nice young men next door, but they were already living with their girlfriends, but that this was kept quiet?

That was because the management wanted the young women to imagine them as potential boyfriends and they needed to be available. Living with girlfriends was hidden to keep the hype up and the money coming in, rather than for moral reasons (though that helped with the parents)

I was born in 1959. My mum carried on working as a telephonist but my dad was looked down on because she did. However, she could only work evenings as childcare was extremely hard to come by. So as soon my dad cycled home from work my mum cycled off to work getting home around 11.30pm. In 1968 she trained to become a teacher but married women received a lower grant and it was means tested against my dad's income.
When I married in 1981 our mortgage was based on 3x my husband's wage and 1x mine. I was training to be a Chartered Accountant and he worked in a factory. I was the higher earner. He got a lot of grief for "allowing" his wife to earn more than him.

I knew a good number of women of my mother's generation (born early 1920s) who were not allowed to take up grammar school places because they would 'only get married'

I saw that happen to women of my generation (I'm in my latter 50s).

Sometimes it was simple misogynistic expectations, sometimes it was the hidden costs of grammar schools which might be found for boys but not girls.

And again, it happened whether you remember it or not. Stop being so self absorbed!

On a large scale? If you say so. However, I had been in the working world for 4 years in 1975. I assume you were either a baby or yet to be born then.

@CecilyP

And again, it happened whether you remember it or not. Stop being so self absorbed!

On a large scale? If you say so. However, I had been in the working world for 4 years in 1975. I assume you were either a baby or yet to be born then.

So? You had worked for 4 years and you think you know what was happening around the country and around the world?

Living with girlfriends was hidden to keep the hype up and the money coming in, rather than for moral reasons (though that helped with the parents)

Yes, the big secret was that John Lennon was actually married!

Having spent so much time with my older relatives and having a passionate interest in social history I am aware of how people lived throughout the C20th in the UK.
My grandmother went into service at 14 years old in 1913, my mother did the same at that age in 1931. They lived in middle class or aristocratic households until marriage. My mother worked in munitions during WW2, my grandmother ran a soup kitchen during the Depression, then a pithead canteen until retirement

I was married in 1975 at 21 years of age.
From a working class family, all the women I knew had worked all their lives in shops, factories, cleaning jobs etc. I was cared for by elderly relatives, in particular my grandfather who had retired early from the pit with pneumoconiosis.

Beginning a career in libraries I was politely questioned as to my intentions on marriage. I fully intended to stay but conceived my first child almost immediately so returned to part-time work until my second child was at school.

The older women in the library system had all done the same, the only ones who were full-time were unmarried. Most of the senior staff were men.

This changed dramatically over the 25 years I worked in libraries. More women stayed full time through marriage and having children.

It's only when threads like this appear that I reflect on the changes in society that I have experienced or seen in my lifetime. I then realise that many people believe that what is happening 'now' is how things have always been.

Women’s rights to have mortgages, bank accounts, custody of their children upon divorce, maternity leave etc etc have been hard won.

We are in danger of losing these rights as trade unions become weakened, we lose protection under EU law and employers seek to maximise profit over all else.

Sorry, a somewhat rambling post, I am ill atm, writing from my bed.

Please talk to your older relatives and listen to their experiences. I am sure some of them are full of 'I got a job and stayed there for 50 years, bought a house and have an amazing pension, Why don't you?" BS but many of them will have a different outlook and will understand the struggles of those with young families today.

.

So? You had worked for 4 years and you think you know what was happening around the country and around the world?

I’ll confess that I only knew of no one who had to leave work on marriage in 1975 in the south of England. I cannot claim any knowledge of what was happening in the rest of the world!

Of course in the 1960s and 70s there was still a pool of older non - married women who had lost fiances or husbands during the war. Not nearly as many as during WW1 but enough to provide a pool of workers for teaching, librarianship and health care. By the end of the Seventies, they were all retiring, so employers had to start opening up to women with children.

"It's only when threads like this appear that I reflect on the changes in society that I have experienced or seen in my lifetime. I then realise that many people believe that what is happening 'now' is how things have always been.

Women’s rights to have mortgages, bank accounts, custody of their children upon divorce, maternity leave etc etc have been hard won.

We are in danger of losing these rights as trade unions become weakened, we lose protection under EU law and employers seek to maximise profit over all else."

And on the back of that, I have asked if this can go into classics. Its really important to keep our social memories of what has changed so very recently.

@SaberToothKitten

"It's only when threads like this appear that I reflect on the changes in society that I have experienced or seen in my lifetime. I then realise that many people believe that what is happening 'now' is how things have always been.

Women’s rights to have mortgages, bank accounts, custody of their children upon divorce, maternity leave etc etc have been hard won.

We are in danger of losing these rights as trade unions become weakened, we lose protection under EU law and employers seek to maximise profit over all else."

And on the back of that, I have asked if this can go into classics. Its really important to keep our social memories of what has changed so very recently.

Women are also in danger of losing those sex-based rights and protections because 'sex' as a class is being legally eroded.

"It's only when threads like this appear that I reflect on the changes in society that I have experienced or seen in my lifetime. I then realise that many people believe that what is happening 'now' is how things have always been.

I was thinking alone these line.

My Mum had her chidlren over just under a decade - with first pg she was told to leave - by last many more mothers were getting back to the "better jobs" - many of my teachers were working mothers for example - and I think she was frustrated she couldn't as there wasn't family childcare help so had to work p/t around school or money to retrain and then later their parents needed support.

Though having said that every pg or after ML Dsis and I have "coincidentally" lost jobs or nearly lost jobs though we found options that suited us and I know many other mothers have hit similar problems or found themselves on the mummy track - but yes despite that it so much better and I think many don't realise this.

It was expected in my mum's office in the 50s that you left once you got married. It was a good job with a well regarded firm.

Other relatives in blue collar work did go back after a while of looking after the baby if the children could be looked after by older women in the family. Those jobs were more turn up for the shift type far lower paid but easier to pick up.

In Australia, the marriage bar in the Commonwealth public service wasn’t removed until 1966. Women used to try to conceal their marriage because they would be sacked and could only return as temps with no benefits and no promotion opportunities. Of course it took until the 70s for equal pay to be legislated.

The marriage bar for teachers was removed in the mid 1950s but they still had to leave when pregnant.

Women weren’t permitted to be the principal of a co-ed school until the late 1970s.

Lots of women were still quietly forced out when they were married or pregnant, and I know plenty of women today who are still being retrenched when they are on maternity leave.

At my primary school in the 1970s in a working class area I only recall one married working mother in my class - she did an early morning bread run so she would be home for the kids in the afternoon. I recall two single mothers who went back to work after they were separated, and that was it.

Further back, but my great grandmother left her violent husband in the 1930s. For the rest of her life she pretended she was a widow so she could keep a decent job. She brought up 4 children in a new city, I can't imagine how tough that must have been