The worlds going mad. Am I really part of the problem?

[DHofSB]

Ok, so there’s a lot of talk about the rich, global politics and inequality at the minute and I get it. However, when I look at comments, threads etc people seem to be aiming blame and sometimes hate to people that sound like me.
My real concern, apart from my own sensitivities of course, is for my kids seemingly growing up in a world where being successful is seen as bad and there being little to no desire to strive and work hard any more.

Allow me to explain but I would like your thoughts…

Father was a policeman, mother a part time hairdresser, they’ve been divorced 15+ years now and both retired
No family money or inheritance involved for them, unlikely for me either
Went to normal comp school
I joined the Army at 18
BUT (bear with me, trying to make point not boast)
I now earn £500k+ a year in a white collar job
I have £1m+ in stocks (that I can’t sell yet)
I have a £950k house with no mortgage
My 2 kids go to private school (with VAT will cost similar to our house over their school lives)
My wife doesn’t (have to) work
I have c£90k pension pot (not a viable saving option for me due to my income, anything over £4k a year into pension I have to pay income tax on hence pointless)
AND YET
I don’t feel wealthy, we have a good life (several parents at the school our kids go to have £2.5m houses, how is that possible??!)
I paid hundreds of thousands in tax last year but my family don’t use the NHS (private through work), or the school system, no benefits/welfare etc Obviously other aspects of public infrastructure we do or would consume: roads, policing etc
I work hard and long to ensure I continue to provide for my family, especially once I inevitably stop earning this kind of salary

Modern society seems to suggest I am the devil, part of the problem with society and should be taxed (even more) heavily. Surely what my family and I have built for ourselves is a good thing and something I would expect most people to have wanted to achieve coming from a similar background, or do I have this all wrong?..

No you don't have it all wrong.

However some of your success is down to timing and getting into a lucrative career and frankly being a man.

Some of it is your hard work, commitment, Health, intelligence, diligence.

A couple of posts on mumsnet won't prove or disprove it all either way.

The resentment comes from :
People who worked equally as hard but didn't hit the economy or the correct industry at the right time.

People who had many more milestones, in their lives. Who grew up surrounded by addiction and /or deprivation and/or inter generational mental health issues or trauma.

Well done on achieving what you have achieved. Remember to understand and check privileges. Remember also that many people don't like to be accountable for their life situation and it's easier to point the finger and blame the person that looks like they have the upper hand.

Inter generational trauma explains a lot.

It's also your choice to use private health care and private schools, and emersing yourself in the oneupmanshipand unhealthy house value rivalry.

House values shot up dramatically from mid 90s to 2008, and the cycle renewed after the slump until now. House values and equity ownership is very dependent on timing. Stop comparing, no good comes from it.

I m not sure what you want from this thread.

I don't feel wealthy
That's the biggest problem with your post. Of course you're wealthy. Because you happen to know people who are wealthier doesn't alter the fact that you are wealthy and privileged above the vast majority of people in the whole world. Recognition of that creates some humility and gratitude. Then comes a genuine desire to help the less fortunate.
Best of luck (with your inner quest).

“I don’t feel wealthy!” Stop taking the piss.

It’s £10K now not £4k. So there, you’ve benefited from posting this thread 😎

Modern society doesn’t suggest you’re the devil, what on earth are you talking about? Some people will always want higher earners to pay more tax (and I agree that higher earners already pay a huge amount) but that’s not what’s happening, is it? We have a labour government and yet they’re cutting benefits rather than raising taxes. Our household income is higher than yours but I don’t feel got at at all, just very fortunate.

I struggle to see how you don’t feel wealthy. You’re aware that most people don’t have kids at private school, private healthcare etc? Stop comparing yourself to the small number of who have more than you and get some perspective.

I've nothing against wealthy people

I am baffled that you don't think you are wealthy.

is it because if you fully embrace it, you have to accept a lot of people don't like you?

or just hard to compute that people hate success? I think what you've done sounds amazing and I take my hat off to you. But I am aware that some people will be angered by it. An Australian work contact told me she thinks we have a bad case of tall poppy syndrome in England. She's worked there and all over Asia. I only worked in New York decades ago but sadly I too wonder if tall poppy syndrome is a bigger issue here.

i do think some wealthy people are demonised and you will get posters saying you should pay more tax.

I'd try to enjoy what you have. If you feel you can't, then give me some money and I promise to enjoy it 😂 I can't fathom having what you have but I'm fine with you having it.

There is nothing wrong with success.

But to say you don’t feel wealthy is interesting. You certainly should be wealthy and on paper it seems you are. So that is confusing.

Do you think 18yo you, army you, or any iteration of you before your success would think you are wealthy?

What do you think old you would say about new you?

Might be a worthwhile thought excercise.

Maybe your wife could get a job and save you from this penury.

Wealth wise you're more than in the top 1%. Have a look online, it's staggering.

Not many white collar jobs pay over 500k a year. You are objectively very rich.

I don't object to the upper tax brackets-we are still keeping 60% or 55% of everything we earn over an amount.

I appreciate you don't use the NHS but I assume your family did growing up. We as a society need people to be health care assistants, hospital porters, cleaners, rubbish collectors. I also as a society want to look after disabled people- there but for the Grace of god...

that costs money. Those of us with more, should pay more.

The problem isn’t you, it the fact that the pay discrepancy is too large (not directly your fault). There is absolutely no justifiable reason to pay someone £500k when minimum wage workers (potentially in the same company) are earning 24k. Of course people who work hard and get qualifications should be rewarded, but earning 20+ times the amount of the lowest paid works is completely obscene. You need to pay higher tax in order to address this huge imbalance.

Ok, so the balance of a little provocation to get a decent convo going and a lack of detail to save an even longer post wasn’t quite right.

To be clear, im obviously not looking for sympathy or responses related to my own situation, more an understanding of the wider view. Clearly there have been some events that have triggered my desire to post and I’m intrigued where people stand on self made ‘success’ (however defined) versus anything else considered ‘rich’ as this seems to encompass a lot right now.

To explain the ‘don’t feel wealthy’ point, which in hindsight was unwise, my point was to highlight that the ceiling now goes very high. Within a shortish drive of most of you I bet there are homes, car showrooms and clothing stores selling goods that you, I and most of the top earners in the country can’t afford (without some other kind of wealth available) so who’s buying this stuff?

You are wealthy and to deny it is an expression of the tiny bubble in which you now find yourself. I disagree that the well off are seen as ‘bad’ , if anything they are revered and allowed to think of themselves as having more value than someone who is working eg in social work or nursing. This then leads to the idea that the wealthy are deserving of special dispensation eg around tax . If you are wealthy and haven’t inherited it you are likely to have worked hard but also to have been lucky. The guy who cleans the hospital floors at night also works hard . Your luck has given you lots of choices in life but also the privilege of paying tax and through that supporting society. If the rich start to feel differently we will start down the route of the US .

This sounds like something running a bit more deeply than what’s in your bank account and more about a lack of self confidence and / or constantly feeling as though you’re in competition with the world and can never just “be.” Less a Money Matters topic and more for Relationships or Mental Health. You lack insight and the ability to reflect on who you are and where you are - I agree with Fruitytutti that some thought exercises on how others perceive you and how former iterations of yourself might perceive you would be really beneficial.

I earn very well, though just under half of what you do - and even living in London, I can’t fathom not knowing and feeling that I’m wealthy every single day. Of course I’m wealthy. But upon reflection, I think that’s also buoyed by having things that money can’t buy. I’ve won the lottery of fucking life: I have brilliant health; I have fantastic parents who worship and adore me and are my greatest cheerleaders; an utterly amazing husband; a lot of wonderful friends who I love and cherish and they me in return; and I really rate and like myself as a person - I’m awesome.

I think if you lack all or some of that, and begin to define yourself and your successes in life purely by £££, it informs the way you perceive yourself. Nobody thinks you’re “the devil” for having money: they’re just frustrated that you don’t have the insight to see how wealthy and fortunate you are and everything you owe for that.

You are not the devil, you have done well in life and paid a good amount of tax, but you have as you’ve described it a high standard of living that’s probably in the top 5% if not higher in the country considering the average wage is 37k a year

nobody is saying you haven’t worked for it, but the fact that you don’t use state schools nhs etc is your wish and decision.

you say you don’t feel rich but I bet you live up to your income and that’s the issue for all of us, cost of living and the condominium climate are so much worse than 20 years ago, 10 years ago and even 5 years ago and going to get worse up until at least 2032 with current economic projections

so whether you are new into the employment market or entered at anytime during the last 25 years even though you may have been earning quite a bit less it’s likely that you are worse off.

and we usually live up to our wage so when the economy tanks and inflation which has gone up in real terms over 25% in the last 5 years then you are going to be worse off

thats not considering anyone who has been made redundant had health issue or any other problems

‘I don’t feel wealthy’ are you taking the actual piss????
If you don’t feel wealthy with the enormous amount of money you have then how the hell do you think people living in poverty feel?
its YOUR choice not to use the NHS and have the PRIVILEGE to choose private.
its YOUR choice to send your kids to private school.
You are extremely lucky not to need welfare benefits.
‘I work hard and long…’ so do millions of other people who live in abject poverty, who can’t afford to heat their homes. The single parents working all hours under the sun to try and make ends meet.
the problem isn’t society seeing you as the devil, it’s seeing the system of the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer. How can we be okay with so many children living in poverty and not having enough to eat while MP’s and energy giants just get more and more greedy.
of course everyone wants to achieve what you have, and a lot of people work just as hard or even harder than you but won’t get anywhere near to the amount of wealth you have no matter how hard they try

I can't believe you don't think you're wealthy. 😂

Presumably no-one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to privately educate your children and for your wife to stay home? Putting them in the local state school would free up some of that hard-earned megabucks to redivert into the "homes, car showrooms and clothing stores" you speak of.

You don't think you could sell your million pound mortgage-free house and buy a more expensive one with a mortgage?

To explain the ‘don’t feel wealthy’ point, which in hindsight was unwise, my point was to highlight that the ceiling now goes very high. Within a shortish drive of most of you I bet there are homes, car showrooms and clothing stores selling goods that you, I and most of the top earners in the country can’t afford (without some other kind of wealth available) so who’s buying this stuff?

Not being the wealthiest doesn’t mean you’re not wealthy. A lot of people earn more than you- successful bankers, lawyers etc- there are literally thousands of them in the city I live in. There will always be someone with more than you, so you’ll always feel dissatisfied if you stick with your current approach.

That’s interesting again! What are you seeing that you can’t buy?

And why are you confused about the 2.5m houses.

I am mid 30s. Barely earnt more than minimum wage for most of my life and have 50% equity in a 600k house. I have paid for very little of that equity. That’s just time in the market. Buying the shittest house in the best street. Blood sweat and tears of diy renovation and ladder hopping 😅 In ten years time I plan to be in a 1 million house also.

If I had 500k salary I can assure you I would be in a 5 million £ house!

Within a shortish drive of most of you I bet there are homes, car showrooms and clothing stores selling goods that you, I and most of the top earners in the country can’t afford (without some other kind of wealth available) so who’s buying this stuff?

If you mean million pound supercars and London apartments upwards of £20 million etc, they are selling largely to oligarchs and people at the top of corrupt regimes. If you’re in a job that pays half a million a year, surely you know that, because you’re almost certainly in an industry where AML and KYC are forefront.

Forget about those people. They may as well be a different species. They certainly aren’t the bar to aspire to, or under which you should feel an inferior who just isn’t doing well enough.

This.
Of course you are wealthy.
Tell someone working in the public sector living in social housing or expensive private rented accommodation that you are not wealthy.
They will works just as hard as you maybe even harder doing equally important work but will get much less income from it. and will neve have a tenth of what you have.
I don't begrudge you your wealth but I do begrudge you insinuating that other people don't work just as hard as you do and want just as much for their children as you do.

That might be the issue actually. You don’t feel wealthy because your not as wealthy as you should be?

Recommend looking at the secret millionaire next door. Theres a calculation you can do to work out whether your a super accumulator of wealth or under accumulator.

… From wiki…

UAWs versus PAWs
Under Accumulator of Wealth (UAW) is a name coined by the authors and used to represent individuals who have a low net worth relative to their income. The authors offer a rule of thumb (more appropriate for those who are older and thus have been earning longer): “Multiply your age times your realized pre-tax annual household income from all sources except inheritances. Divide by ten. This, less any inherited wealth is what your net worth should be.” Take a 50-year-old doctor earning $250,000. According to the rule of thumb, he should be saving 10% yearly and should have about $1.25 million in net worth. Those whose net worth is lower can be considered "Under Accumulators". UAWs focus on consuming income, rather than saving.

A Prodigious Accumulator of Wealth (PAW) is one who accumulates well over one tenth of the product of their age and their realized pretax income.
Most of the millionaire households the authors researched did not have the extravagant lifestyles that most people would assume. This finding is backed up by surveys indicating how little these millionaire households spent on such things as cars, watches, clothing, and other luxury products or services. Most importantly, the book gives a list of reasons for why these people managed to accumulate so much wealth (the top one being that "They live below their means"). The authors make a distinction between the 'Balance Sheet Affluent' (those with actual wealth, or high-net-worth) and the 'Income Affluent' (those with a high income, but little actual wealth, or low net-worth).

There’s nothing wrong either success at all.

There’s everything wrong with the fact that the poorest 10% of households pay more tax as a percentage of their income than higher earners.

Theres everything wrong with the wealthy using accountants to help them bend the UK tax rules (and many do) so they can legally avoid tax - if you do this, if you deliberately use tax avoidance when you already pay a substantially lower proportion if your in on in tax than the poorest households do then you are not someone I would be interested in knowing.

And there’s everything wrong with you talking about your £500k+ income and bemoaning that others have more.

It's the differential. As others have said doctors, carers, sewage workers, teachers, power station operatives etc all work hard and a pay gap where the average wage is £37k and your pay (whatever it is you do and however hard you work) is £500k cannot be right. A difference of 10 times between the highest and lowest paid in an organisation is more than adequate. I'd be intrigued if you feel you can justify otherwise? The only concession I might see is for the person that started the company, as they created all the other jobs.

The money launderers are buying the property, luxury cars. The end.