BBC are saying you need a joint salary of 70,000 to avoid poverty

[bridgetjonesmassivepants]

I find this such a high sum. How are most families meant to reach this figure? It doesn't include pension contributions so you would probably need 80,000 by their reckoning.
They are saying that you are in poverty if you can't manage a UK holiday every year and 70 a month on cultural experiences.

Thank you. Low rent/mortgage is a big factor.

It's defined as 'relative poverty' and it's not 'no treats, holidays, cinema or sports clubs' at all, because presumably once you stop being able to afford one or more of these things, you'll be in this category, even if you can afford to do some of others.

The experience of people just below the line will be significantly different to that of people well below it, who can't afford anything, not even having enough to pay for absolute basics like food, heating, children's clothes etc.

Plus the waters get muddied by people on higher incomes who could have a much lower disposable income because their housing and childcare costs are higher for whatever reason, or also different people prioritising frugality in different ways.

Some people might be able to afford fewer discretionary items because they choose to live in a larger property or one in a more expensive area than others, or because they never bother to shop around to lower the cost of their broadband etc etc, whereas others will be demon budgetters who can make the same amount of money go much further - some of this is outside people's control, but sometimes what you can afford very much depends on the effort you put into managing your money.

Also, what happened in the 2008 recession is that poverty rates actually went down, but that was because higher paid people lost their jobs, so the overall average income went down and the line moved down to the incomes of lower paid people, rather than their incomes increasing towards a defined income.

It's a complex issue and I'm not sure that soundbites like 'a family needs £70k a year to avoid poverty' is particularly useful or helpful.

We have about £50k and many, many kids. We survive. There are no flashy holidays but there are UK holidays, we eat out, have takeaways, run two cars, have Netflix, Amazon Prime etc go to the pub and buy a bottle of wine so I'd say we were pretty far from poverty.

The cost of housing isn't even about just location, it's age and circumstances. We've been paying a mortgage for 15 years so it's now around £700 a month, we make about 65k between us and don't struggle. But I have friends paying £1200 a month for a smaller house than ours, which seems to be fairly standard and would definitely make things harder. Just because they're younger and didn't buy a place when we did.

It's a complex issue and I'm not sure that soundbites like 'a family needs £70k a year to avoid poverty' is particularly useful or helpful.

The above isn't actually a soundbite from the BBC. The OP (I think) worked out her own cut off based on her outgoings.

I earn about £16k a year, I'm a single mum and I'm not living in poverty. I have a house, live within my means and have more than enough to do things with my ds throughout the month etc. I'm not going on holiday this year though as I'm paying for a divorce and house move. Next year though I shall be going on holiday. £70k is a lot of money where on earth do they get these figures from?

@CornishGem1975 do you live in cornwall? I just read Catrina Davies' book, why i live in a shed, and she said her sister who owned a house in a village near St Levans would rent out her house over the summer (and her sister, brother in law and nieces would live in a tent with their dog). basically the holiday let would pay for the mortgage cos people are willing to pay the big bucks for a cornish holiday. I can't do that with my flat in a London suburb!

It is sad people have to do this to pay the mortgage but it is additional income in a sense.

Unfortunately I don't @onthefencesitter but that sounds like a bloody cracking idea!!

This article?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61501778
It say you need just over £4000 per month which is 50k per year.

@Quizzed private rent has gone up a lot. my SIL was paying £400 for a room in prestwich which isn't too far off what my DH and i are paying for our flat in London -£1020 mortgage, so £500 each. I would not be surprised if there are many rooms for £500 in even the NW which is a cheaper part of the UK, so £1k for a 2 bed flat. my DH and I earn in excess of £70k and we don't have a car or have kids so you can imagine how worse off some people are compared to us.

If the £70k was made up of 2 salaries of £35k, net take home pay would be about £2.5k each, without factoring in any pension contributions.

Average rent for a 3-bedroom property here (SE, but 50 miles from London) is £3k, so that leaves £2k for everything else. Allowing £200 for energy, £50 for water and £150 for council tax, that doesn't leave a massive amount for everything else imo.

The "official" definition of fuel poverty is spending more than 10% of your disposable income on energy. The recent price rises will put a lot of people into that category.

I would say £175 spending money for one person is OK but for a large family it wouldn't be.

£50k a year after tax.

A single earner household will need a salary of well over £70k pa to have £4k pm income.

Two lower earners, it's more like £33k pa each, depending on pension and student loan payments. Plus they'd get around £150 pm CB if they have 2 DC.

I'm shocked at the prices of rent in some places.

Having a small mortgage (which I feel lucky to have) certainly makes a huge difference.

I bought in 2019 and i am shocked at the cost of rent in my own area (zone 3 north london). The thing is- i can see why it costs so much because BTL mortgage rates are higher, you need to account for repairs (which may be more if the property is overutilized i.e. flat being rented out to family of 4 with young kids and pets), need to upgrade property to hit higher EPC standards, account for void periods or non payment of rents. But still it has increased by £200 in 3 years and is a good £600 more than my mortgage.

I would say £175 spending money for one person is OK but for a large family it wouldn't be.

I have a dh and two DC. I've had a similar budget for a week after bills but it had to include food. It was really really tough. Kids need so much stuff especially as they get older.

Last week my ds lost his pe kit...£60 to replace! My other DC is leaving primary. £29 for a leavers hoodie! I broke my phone...it's a cheap one but £85 to replace. Or the kettle breaks..£15 for a basic one. It's scary how quick you can burn through money!

We only have one child so only need a 2 bed flat (rent is still a fortune, 1500/month)

No debt
Child in secondary so no childcare
DH cycles to work, I only have to go in a couple times a week
No expensive hobbies
No car
Fairly frugal in general

So a lot of it is luck (we are both healthy enough to work, don't have to care for elderly parents yet, etc.) some of it is choices (only having one child, that was definitely for financial reasons)

We are on £50k combined income, and manage absolutely fine, but

We bought a small property well within our means before house prices went crazy in our area.

I've managed to get part time hours that pay very well and mean we haven't needed to pay for any childcare (just playgroup for DDs benefit).

We live in a national park 10 minutes drive from the beach so don't 'need' to go on holiday (certainly haven't bothered in the last 2 years).

Also I have the scope to increase my hours and pay considerably when DD starts reception, which is a nice luxury to have with the current inflation.

I can imagine that £70k doesn't go far if you live in an, even moderately, expensive city and have young children.

@Quizzed

Surely you are on top up benefits though if you're on such a low salary and have children? So I presume you're not living off 16k and nothing else? What's your income when you take benefits into account? I'm not judging by the way...I'm genuinely curious

I have two budgets. The scraping-by budget that is absolute essentials and a couple of things that I personally think are the most basic of non-essentials for me and my kid that everyone should be able to afford in this country. (telly and music for her, £16 a month. National trust membership, a hot bath once a week and a not-freezing, but not really warm house for me) and some things that aren’t truly essential, but considered normal and can’t just be cancelled to get through a tough month (broadband, mobile phone, some school dinners, a couple cheap clubs). It’s an only just about adequate (£15pppw) food and clothes (£30 pm) budget. It’s stressful and I have to watch it like a hawk to make it stretch. Lots of making do, doing without, finding gifted and second hand clothes etc. no booze, no vaping, no beauty, no school trips, no takeaways, no going out at all (except local and free).

It’s £1200 a month, and I wouldn’t call it living - just surviving. But it is miserable, unacceptable in this country for anyone and not sustainable long term. I have exceptionally low housing costs (only £350 a month) only one child, no childcare costs, no commuting costs, have had a lot more in the past (so often living off capital or can sell things if need be) and no debt other than a small mortgage (no car payments). There’s nothing for new glasses or dental treatment, calculators or stationery, car repairs, holidays, birthdays, days out, evenings out, hobbies. Definitely no holidays. Even haircuts or toothbrush heads are hard to buy. Ok, we aren’t huddled around a single candle, but if I need printer ink I have to find something to sell. That’s not ok.

It also doesn’t include ANY savings, or even adequate insurance. I don’t have a will or life insurance because I have no spare funds. If the washing machine breaks or a filling falls out or we even if we need a lawnmower or lightbulbs, I’m fucked. If your only way of dealing with that is to cross your fingers, that’s poverty, isn’t it? Because sooner or later it will happen.

If you had normal housing costs, commute costs, a car on finance, were saving even a little and had proper insurance etc, yes I think you are looking at a lot more. Those things matter.

My ‘sensible’ budget is £2400 a month. That’s with a small emergency fund, life insurance, tiny pension, adequate food budget, and something for health and random stuff like printer ink. Still no childcare, very low housing costs and no car payment, and no daily ‘luxuries’, going out or adult pocket money (but a UK camping holiday, enough clothes and kids clubs and cheap birthday/Christmas celebrations). It’s hardly living it up - £50k a year (for a family of four) to go without haircuts and takeaways!

So yes, I bet a family could easily get up to 70k without extravagance. My 24k is still very basic, and for only two people. If you’re renting, it would be be double my housing cost. 2 adults likely need two cars to work and commute costs, so double again, and while heating etc isn’t double, most things are, so £50k before tax? Add childcare, and your most of the way there aren’t you? Poverty doesn’t have to be Dickensian. It’s just not having enough for basics. A lawnmower, printer ink, dental care, taking the kids out for the day occasionally or haircuts should be included in those basics, not the just a roof and bread and water.

I agree, and rents can be much higher than mortgages, especially in comparison to houses purchased years ago. Anyone who is renting, or who has bought recently at sky high prices is going to be paying much more than someone who bought over 10 years+ ago. Rents have gone up so much recently, the rent on my house would be more than double my mortgage .

Do they mean 70k is where you don't have to worry about money at all, rather than avoiding poverty? It isn't a low income. Again, it's dependant on circumstances (especially with housing) and location.

Rents are crucial factors, which relate to house prices.

Everyone seems to cheer when house prices go up, but not when the price of a tin of beans goes up.

House prices are insane. Rental rates round here are utterly insane.

@Comedycook I take home roughly £1400 a month, I only have the one child and I do get some universal credit but it's only an extra £100 a month, and child benefit so I get about £1600 in total. I am however living in a cheaper part of the UK and my mortgage/bills come to about £800 a month so I am lucky that I have lower bills. I however do not have a car or any debts so have quite a bit left over after I pay for food and travel to work.

I think the title of this thread is misleading, op put her own numbers in and came to the 70 k to live comfortably.