BBC are saying you need a joint salary of 70,000 to avoid poverty

[bridgetjonesmassivepants]

I find this such a high sum. How are most families meant to reach this figure? It doesn't include pension contributions so you would probably need 80,000 by their reckoning.
They are saying that you are in poverty if you can't manage a UK holiday every year and 70 a month on cultural experiences.

I haven’t read the full thread.

I am confused. I looked up average salaries for full time workers in the UK. There is no scenario where a dual income family with two parents working on average salaries is above “poverty.” This seems ridiculous. Half the UK cannot be in poverty. It’s an insult to hard working people who are taking care of themselves and their families.

Why not??? In comparison to large part of the EU it is. It is a low wage, low productivity country with ramshackle public services. It is entirely possible for average wages to be on the cusp of poverty. People are on MN constantly discussing how they will heat their houses and manage their food bill. That's not a sign of a prosperous country

20% of UK families are in poverty. Not half but pretty high. This also includes pensioners who may not have high incomes but are mortgage free and also no dependents. Also no commuting costs. Or DINKY- double incomes and no kids like me. 50% of working families will be in poverty by 2030, this is an official stat I read. Would not be surprised if this is true now due to inflation crisis. But as a disclaimer, 'workingnfamilies' refer to a family with at least one child, not 2 pensioners or 2 working adults though of course pensioner poverty is a problem..
Working families obviously have higher outgoings than adult couples.

*20% of UK households.

@EmpressoftheMundane it may also shock you to know you need to earn £40k in order to be a net contributor to our welfare state. Everyone else who earns below that is using up more services than they are paying in tax. Only London and the SE are net contributors, the other regions spend more than they receive in tax

@Hyy4323 surely you know that is nonsense. Our living costs comparative to income have been some of the lowest in the world for a very long time. Our food costs are almost the lowest.

@fyn food costs are very low. The issue is not the food costs, the issue is the number of people who don't earn enough to afford the food even at rock bottom prices for various reasons. Some people say it's because the house prices are high but there are food banks even in places where houses are 100k. Poverty rates are highest in the NW.

It's a complex issue- poverty isn't just about low incomes, there are also issues of addiction, disability etc. And the UK seems to have quite a large population of people who fall through the cracks for whatever reason..

@onthefencesitter but to say that Britain is one of the most poverty stricken countries in Europe is nonsense and I’m sure you know it.

We are defo poorer than we think we are if that makes sense. There's always lots of "as we are one of the richest countries in the world" but per capita we are not doing very well.

@fyn it's quite meaningless to compare ourselves to the ex Soviet bloc. Basically they have been exposed to capitalism for as long as my DH has been on this earth (in post war times) unlike the UK, birthplace of Adam Smith and where the British empire spanned two thirds of the globe. We need to compare ourselves against Nordic states, Australia, western Europe and rich Asian countries like Japan and Singapore.

There was a UN investigation into poverty in the UK for a reason. There is a lot of wealth here definitely (I live near a street where houses are valued at £30 million). There are jobs in London which pay a 25 year old £100k. This skews average wealth. There are footballers who earn millions. I mean, combined income of £75k for a couple(no kids) is the top 15% so that means there is a good chunk of people who earn more . Doctors, lawyers, tradesmen all earn reasonably well as do city workers. 50% of my generation (millenials) had help with deposits and this doesn't even include the ones who had free rent like me (those people would mostly be ok with cost of living crisis probably). There is a lot of wealth. But there is a lot of poverty as well.

Well it just depends which map you use doesnt it

If you use other figures- the UK certainly has the most poorest area in Northern Europe. The UK economy overall is fine (ish and shrinking) but it has the biggest wealth inequality in Europe

Poverty in the UK is 'systematic' and 'tragic', says UN special rapporteur www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692

Do some people who earn decent wages think they are struggling because they have chose to have the bigger house and the newer car?

We could have moved when I went full time and DH got promoted but we chose to stay where we were and I have an old car so we have quite a bit of spare money each month.

Do some people who earn decent wages think they are struggling because they have chose to have the bigger house and the newer car?

We earn a good wage & whilst not struggling haven't got loads spare. House isn't big I just was unable to buy it any earlier as I was still at school. Car is 10 yrs old.

@onthefencesitter fine, Australia and America both have higher poverty levels than we do. The definition is anyone living in a household with less than 60% of the median household income, so those footballers incomes don’t really skew it. In real terms, for a family of four, it equates £342 or less per week after housing costs.

@Hyy4323 the source I provided used the officially recognised definition of poverty by the EU across all of Europe. Yours compares 9 countries and isn’t looking at poverty levels.

I understand. I keep repeating myself I know but I really feel for the younger generation. House prices are ridiculous. I'm hoping DS chooses to stay with us to save for a deposit rather than rent. We can't afford to give him a deposit so that is the only way we can help.

your version looks at average aka skewed by footballers and city lawyers. Mine looks at pockets of poverty in Europe and finds the UK has most of them. And of course we can compare ourselves to Eastern Europe and Portugal - but having lived in both - in no way would those countries count themselves or talk about themselves are wealthy. Rather they see themselves as poor and often migrate out to countries such as Germany, Netherlands, France etc etc etc. If we see ourselves are rich - then our comparison is Northern Europe. If we recognise the UK is poor - or atleast a country in which median income might also mean you're poor - then compare away with Southern and Eastern Europe

@fyn australia has incredibly high costs of transport for any imported item so that makes cost of living much higher even for basic items so therefore it is therefore harder for the poor. America has a fundamentally different way of looking at inequality/poverty i.e. the American dream and the belief in hard work and small government. Also America has a significant part of the population who are descendants of ex slaves and who also suffered greatly due to segregation i.e. mortgages weren't given to homes in black areas hence the mean household income of black households is 14% of that of white households; plus we are not counting the ones in jail. We have discrepancies between ethnic groups, but it is not as bad as in the USA. Our immigrants from ex colonies were not slaves; I am from an ex British colony and even if i trace back 4 generations, we had our own home and business and were educated.

@Hyy4323 is right, the fact that the poorest places in northern europe are all in the UK is ridiculous. Those are also the places in the uk with cheap housing that people on mumsnet say you should move to. I always feel tempted to suggest to them that they might as well suggest we move to eastern europe.

It's no longer just house prices or young people. Am in my early 40s - this is a common issue for people younger than myself - i.e. middle aged people. Wages have kept up with inflation. Basically if you pay childcare, mortgage, bills - many middle aged people i.e. 30s and above dont find it easy

the fact that the poorest places in northern europe are all in the UK is ridiculous.

I agree

Upgrading is quite expensive nowadays. We are looking at upgrading to a bigger flat and it would be £28k in total including £16k in stamp duty. plus extra 100k in mortgage.If you have that money disposable, you would not be worrying about the cost of groceries or basics! I mean, i think we can just about afford it and I am not struggling. Of course circumstances can change, but from what i observed, the people who are able to move to a bigger home are usually doing lateral moves (bigger house for same amount of money) or genuinely earning more than enough to cover costs and some more. Its why the stamp duty holiday during the pandemic was so unfair as it mainly benefited richer homeowners at the expense of FTB like my neighbour who bought a 500k house in Herts while keeping her london flat (she really doesn't need a stamp duty discount to enable her to move). Poorer people tend to stay put or they rent. I doubt they can even make lateral moves due to cost of estate agent fees and stamp duty (it would seem like a risky decision if you were struggling hand to mouth).

Not sure about new car as I don't drive.

@Hyy4323 The map shows the official definition of poverty - earning less that 60% of the median income after housing costs. The median disposable income in the UK is £31,400 per household. My household disposable income is much less than that and we want for literally nothing. We were barely over the poverty income level, about £20, for a while when I was made redundant and still lived a perfectly nice life, we had a UK holiday that year but were perfectly fine.

Compared to when I lived in America and saw children with no healthcare who lived in deprivation there or my husband who worked for the UN for ten years running aid projects around the world, it’s wildly disingenuous and quite offensive to pretend that this country is poverty stricken.

What you are saying is that out of 195 countries in the world, out nine of the most privileged we have more pockets of deprivation then we aren’t doing too badly.

I think most people (if not everyone) would precisely equate the US with shocking wealth inequality and poverty. I've also lived there and have worked in development myself though not in the US. However, I would never in the million years define the US as anything but vastly unequal society where vast numbers of people live in poverty. Yes, it might have some of the glam and cash etc etc but for its people - its pretty damn terrible. In that regard - the US is akin to China and India - i.e. vast countries, with pockets of wealth, hideous inequality and shocking levels of poverty.

Regarding the UK - I think the reality is that Brits do like to compare themselves to Northern Europe i.e. Europe. No one thinks they are comparing themselves to Poland or Portugal when talking about Europe. But in comparison to Scandinavia and Northern Europe - the UK is pretty damn poor.

And the map that I shared was produced by Eurostat - i.e. the EU and supported by a House of Commons report. inequalitybriefing.org/brief/briefing-43-the-poorest-regions-of-the-uk-are-the-poorest-in-northern-