BBC are saying you need a joint salary of 70,000 to avoid poverty

[bridgetjonesmassivepants]

I find this such a high sum. How are most families meant to reach this figure? It doesn't include pension contributions so you would probably need 80,000 by their reckoning.
They are saying that you are in poverty if you can't manage a UK holiday every year and 70 a month on cultural experiences.

It isn't a bloody race to the bottom.

People working full time should be, at the very least, able to afford their bills and basic lifestyle items plus a holiday and a few other regular treats - nights out and so on.

Whereas we are in the situation now where wages have lagged behind the cost of living since 2008, even before the cost of living crisis. And now we are in the situation where people working full time are choosing whether to put the boiler on or eat that day, claiming benefits and using food banks.

Well done the Tories. It's not even what they would want really, people not having money to spend will break capitalism. They are just incompetent.

We are on 50k combined, 2 kids and doing fine. But our mortgage is relatively low (£750pm). The rent on a similar property is £1200pm which we wouldn't be able to afford. Income isn't the only factor in poverty, outgoings are a massive factor.

You can't generalise because the cost of essentials like housing and childcare vary so much.

The difference in money left over after paying rent/mortgage and childcare could vary by £2/3k per month in extreme circumstances between households with the same income.

Plus if you look at the breakdown in the assumptions, they're all over the place.

Apparently a childfree, non pensioner couple only needs £27k before tax to be not in poverty, so I'm not sure why they think two adults can live on this amount, but add in 2 DC and suddenly you need £70k? Or if you tell it you have a baby and a toddler, it claims you need over £90k

Was the survey designed by one of the £100k income 'isn't that much' London Mumsnetters?

We're two childfree working adults with relatively low outgoings and we pay out a lot more than a lot of the assumptions in the breakdown.

Eg less than £6 a week each in pension contributions, that's only just over 1%, most schemes require far more than that.

£6 a week for water for the household, ours is nearly twice that.

£16 a week for gas and electricity, ours hasn't been that low for years.

Rent about £450 pm, there's not many places that you can rent even a 1 bed flat for that little.

etc etc

Between us my husband and I don’t even earn 30k and we’re comfortable. I fixed our gas & electricity at the right time (completely by chance) so we weren’t affected by the recent rises, our mortgage is just over £350 a month for a big 3/4 bed with large garden in a popular street. We drive a modest car, second hand but not especially old and in good condition. We have 2 kids in state schools and pay a childminder for 2 days a week after school care.

We manage this because we live in a historically deprived part of Scotland that has some of the cheapest house prices in the country - it’s not a bad area, I wouldn’t live anywhere else but it doesn’t have a lot going for it. We don’t take a foreign holiday every year, not because we can’t afford it but because we didn’t grow up having a foreign holiday every year so we don’t expect one. I don’t think we spend £70 a month on ‘cultural experiences’ but we have a National Trust for Scotland membership so use that to access their local site and have the odd trip to the cinema.

i’m not naïve enough to think hard times won’t come, but the thought of struggling, in my specific circumstances, on 70k a year is laughable.

@Testina of course. For us it's childcare that's the killer. My husband also drives 74 miles a day for work so fuel has become big. Energy is massive because our house is old and really inefficient to run- we are hoping to sort this next year which we are currently saving for. It also always needs something done to it, at the moment it's a new damp patch in the corner of my bedroom, right above where we sleep, yikes! Our council tax is band G and my work has become zero hours so sometimes is more/less. We also pay a fortune on insurances for various things! Have 2 cars, 1 pcp and one very old one that always needs something done but is good for bumping around on country tracks.

It's OK right now, because we are scrupulously budgeting and very conscious of every single thing we buy. But it just goes to show that the 70k thing is completely subjective. If someone said me as a child that I'd one day be living in a household earning over 70k a year, I'd have thought kerching!!!! But its not, really.

It’s the two personal allowances.

In fact, she doesn’t even get a whole one because she earns over £100k apparently.

She’s going to be much more comfortable though once all 3 kids are in school.

@icebearforpresident but your specific circumstances aren't really indicative of the nation. What the statistic should reflect is the national average. And for the national average, £1k on rent for a family home isn't that unbelievable. I pay the same for my mortgage on a flat in London. Its why my friend in yorkshire had the same outgoings as me (2 cars and private rental) while i get away with using public transport.

so much is to do with housing though & when you bought. Plus childcare is so expensive

@onthefencesitter of course they aren’t, but they do illustrate the huge problem with stories like this, which will be making some people panic quite needlessly.

Maybe they include social poverty in their measure i.e. ability to join in activities
I think this is important and people don’t realise the impact. I remember sitting at home on my own every evening and weekend for years, while neighbours kids went to swimming, dancing, music lessons etc. In those days there wasn’t much kids stuff on the tv except for Saturday morning cartoons, so the only thing I had to fill the time was library books because they were free. I remember being so bored and lonely, and obviously I was deprived of the opportunity to make friendships and develop skills too. When I started applying for jobs I had nothing to put on my CV except my qualifications, and employers picked up on that and rejected me for not being a well rounded individual.

well said. there are some nhs trusts who have set up food banks for the staff in hospitals. Call me crazy but i don't think nurses should rely on food banks. It is a job that requires professional qualifications. Its not a job which people rely on in the interim while they gain professional qualifications. It is also an essential job that society needs.

Was the survey designed by one of the £100k income 'isn't that much' London Mumsnetters?

It wasn’t long ago a thread like this would attract criticism for being out of touch. In fact if someone did one now you’d get the same

Now it’s under £70k can be called poverty

although did they use that word op? Could you link pls - it may be another term

We are on about 60k and don't struggle by any means. Two holidays abroad a year with the children, a long weekend away or in the UK ourselves, and a weekend away with the kids. Own our own house. I think it will depend on your outgoings. Our mortgage is now only 390 a month. I bet some people who are saying they earn more than us and are skint have a much higher mortgage to pay, possibly private school fees etc.

Are people including their top up benefits in these figures. When people say they earn 20k but aren't struggling, are they actually receiving extra £££££ every year thanks to UC top up or tax credits?

Someone should tell the Student Loans Company that £70k a year is a kind of poverty, because they think that family income only entitles DC to minimum loan, and once graduated that income brings hefty loan repayments each month.
But yeah, apparently it's Schroedinger's poverty, too rich for help but too poor for normal family experiences.

Its much more painful in the UK because so many things have to be paid for. In my home country, we had an education account and the government would top up the account for a few hundred a year which could be used on school trips and extra curricular activities. Every child had to have a extra curricular activity and participate in at least 150 hours of volunteering over 4 years. This was compulsory. So the poorest child could have at least 1 extra curricular activity.

I never appreciated this as a child, as my parents could afford to pay for swimming and other activities (and I was a bookish child who just wanted to be left alone with my books). But I learnt skating, painting, flower arranging, tea appreciation, rock climbing, dikir barat music and was exposed to lots of things through school (and everyone could participate regardless of income). My British DH who was on free school meals wasn't exposed to anything like that.

When I was job hunting in London in 2003, a basic full time admin job paid £19k-£25k. Fast forward to 2022, a basic admin job pays £19k-£25k

That figure is based on "what members of the public think you need for a minimum acceptable standard of living in the UK" (quote taken from www.lboro.ac.uk/research/crsp/minimum-income-standard/ ).

Does this mean that if people don't meet the MIS then they are in poverty?
I don't think so - I think there is a difference between having a pretty crappy quality of life (no treats, holidays, cinema, sports subs) and not being able to feed, clothe and house your family.

Monthly income about £1900 after tax

All primary bills so rent, council tax, utilities, car insurance and petrol cost about £900pm

That leaves about 1k to live off.

I have no debt, no credit cards no loans. My mobile phone contract is like £13 a month. I also don't have a big TV package just Netflix and Amazon prime that we run off the old ps4.

I put about £200 - £300 in to savings a month. I then book like a 3* last minute AL holiday to anywhere. There's only me and 1 child so a twin room does the job.

Basically I'm not fussy and have been to Spain, Croatia, Malta, Portugal wherever on like a day's notice and its cost like £400-500

I also benefit from things like armed forces discount still as a widow and a blue light discount card because of my work.

I understand I am very lucky to a have low rent, and b have discounts available to me. Not every family does, I am most definitely the exception and not the norm.

I calculated mine (1 adult, 1 secondary aged child, mortgage) and what it said I need is quite a bit lower than what I earn, which is what I expected as I feel pretty comfortable.

I did freak out to start with as I'd entered my monthly mortgage as weekly!

oh and it is quite a lot less than 70K!

🤔Average mortgage payment in the UK 2021 was £723. There are not many place left in the UK you can buy a house today where your mortgage payment would be £390, without having a huge deposit. So yes a lot of people have a higher mortgage then you, especially if they live in the south.

It's not just nurses though, HCAs for example are on ridiculously low wages- it's outrageous. And cleaners who do a pretty grim but vital job let's be honest, porters, catering staff. Plenty of staff on not far off of minimum wage for doing hard manual and emotional shift work in a challenging environment.

Monthly income about £1900 after tax

All primary bills so rent, council tax, utilities, car insurance and petrol cost about £900pm

That leaves about 1k to live off.

I have no debt, no credit cards no loans. My mobile phone contract is like £13 a month. I also don't have a big TV package just Netflix and Amazon prime that we run off the old ps4.

I put about £200 - £300 in to savings a month

So how do you live off £700 a month....? Does it include food? I have a slightly higher amount available every month and I struggle. Never buy myself new clothes, even cheap ones. Can't get my hair done. It's a struggle. I don't see how you are finding the equivalent of £175 easy to live off every week

It’s not poverty but I can also see how might feel skint at the end of the month. Assuming two parents on £35k, student loan and 8% pension - the take home is £2019 each - monthly take home c.£4040.

mortgage on a 3 bed in SW - £1500
childcare x 2 - £2000
bills (council tax, gas and electric, internet, water, Netflix, phones) - £600?

Thats £4100 outgoings before I’ve even factored in food etc!

Even reducing childcare costs it’s not a huge amount to play with…