Anyone knowledgeable about benefit fraud rules re living together?

[HoneycombAndAJackass]

Or not as the case may be.

I received a call today as someone has reported me for benefit fraud.
I live with my 3 children and work part time, In receipt of universal credit (including housing element) and child benefit. This has been the case for the past 3 years.

Started a new relationship 2 years ago.
A year into the relationship, As I'd read various info on mumsnet and various other online sources about rules regarding having partners stay over I thought the best thing to do was call DWP and see exactly what the rules were.

The information I got was he could stay as many nights as I saw fit as long as we were not financially linked to one another.
I explained that he was here quite a lot (3-6 nights per week depending on how I was doing health-wise)
They told me this was fine and just to log the call on my UC journal online, Which I did.

We have continued as we are for the year since, I pay all my own bills and he pays his, He does not contribute financially to my home or upkeep of my children. He has his own rented property and is on the mortgage of his family home.

If we go on holiday, I pay for me and the kids, He pays for himself.

We do plan on moving in together eventually, But it's a huge decision and not something I want to rush.

Chatted about all of this with the lady from the DWP fraud team and whilst she says she is happy to close the case, If I had another complaint/report they may well investigate me for benefit fraud.

I was quite upset at this as I had taken steps to make sure everything I was doing was legit and above board and asked what I should change.
She said I should just be aware of how things 'looked' to others. It was all very strange and I felt I couldn't get any concrete answers to my questions.

I explained that I was in no way financially benefiting in my situation as I still pay all of my bills, Council Tax etc....If he even picks me up so much as a loaf of bread I bank transfer him the money with 'bread' as the reference so that I can prove I don't take a penny from him.

I feel now that I am being pressured to move in together before I am absolutely ready, As even if he stays less nights it would make no difference to my finances and possible fraud investigation if there were to be another complaint.

I'm not sure where to go from here.

Has anyone ever been through something similar?
Any advice appreciated.

You're ticking all the right boxes, so at face value you are not cheating benefits. The thing is, at the moment, you are both vastly benefiting financially. You are getting quite a bit of benefit which in addition to the maintenance allows you to only work PT yet not depending on anyone.

If you move with your partner, you will either have to be financially dependent on him or increase your hours.

Ultimately you could continue with this arrangement up until you would be expected to look for ft work by UC.

Ultimately, you are absolutely right to be cautious becoming dependent on a man, but at the same time, it is right that the dwp have the option to consider whether you are opting not to move in together solely to claim benefits so you don't have to be dependent on him.

" highlights how overly generous the benefits system is for single parents. (Which anyone with a half a brain could already see anyway)"

And there we go... perfect example of someone who thinks single parents should be living off bread and water with no luxuries whatsoever no matter how small or how hard they save

forgive me if I am wrong but im pretty sure @jemihap has something against single parents. You always seem to pipe up with some nasty comment on threads where single parents are wanting advice.

Your attitude stinks to be honest. I am a working single mom. With no help from my DS dad or his family. It is incredibly hard. I earn minimum wage, work nearly full time and get hardly any additional help. Me and my son live off less than £100 a month. Due to a mess up with tax credits this month we have virtually nothing to live off and I am having to rely on a credit card or my parents to feed us. We have no social life, no luxuries. So how is the benefits system overly generous to us single parents?

Please stop forcing your unhelpful opinions on people that genuinely want help and advice.

Hi,
I've not long had a meeting with UC office and actually it surprised me what they said.
They said it doesn't go on anything financial, or over nights etc it is judged on spare time.
He said " If you have a boyfriend and he comes over for dinner the majority of the time after work but doesn't stay over and you spend weekends together then you shouldn't be claiming single UC"
I asked even if there are no financial links, he has his own house/bills etc etc?
The man replied saying "For example - if you have a long distance lorry driver boyfriend and he is away all week but spends every weekend with you - as he is spending the majority of his free time with you then you are in a partnership and should not be claiming as a single"
He basically said it is the % of free time you spend together.
He also said that if I ever leave the country to go abroad then I should inform UC even if it is for a few days. I know this is taken into account with certain benefits like JS allowance but as i work full time and only get topped up by UC he said holidays under 4 weeks will not change my payments but I still need to inform them. (Sorry I know that is off topic but I thought maybe others did not know this either as I wasn't informed of this at the start)

Posts like playitsam's make me think they're making it up as they go along! That advisor sounds like he's interpreted things in his own way. If they wanted to make it clear they'd write it down CLEARLY what the ACTUAL rules are. Everyone individually being told different things makes it easy to sanction people who are easy to sanction (i.e. people trying to be honest and above-board). This is a fault of the system, not advisors, but there should be clear rules written down in black and white for everyone to see and it's absolutely ludicrous that there aren't.

@playitsam I didn't know about the holidays thing either, And I've been away a few times since being on UC.

As for the spare time thing, That is very strange. For example, My friend spent all of her spare time here, She would come for a coffee after work, Stay for dinner then we'd sit and chat late into the night, More often than not she would stay over. Would the DWP consider me to be in a relationship with her or does it only count if it is someone you are having sex with?

At the start of a relationship, You know how it is....can't keep your hands off each other, text all day, want to spend every moment with each other...Is that not allowed? Is it acceptable for a certain 'honeymoon period'?, Do they want everyone jumping into cohabiting relationships with each other?

highlights how overly generous the benefits system is for single parents. (Which anyone with a half a brain could already see anyway)"

FFS, here we go. Yes, so generous that single parents are having to use food banks despite being in full time employment. So generous that single parents are getting into debt because they can't pay fixed costs like rent and council tax. It's attitudes like that about single parents and benefits that make us some kind of second class citizen and in most cases because a man has fucked his responsibility off. But oh yes, the women must take the blame mustn't they?!

OP the whole thing sounds bonkers. Could you get some independent benefits advice from cab maybe? Is it any wonder that single mums are moving very new boyfriends in before they know them enough when if you try and build a relationship naturally, you're committing fraud even if you're still financially independent? What an utterly ridiculous place we've landed up in. Jobs that don't pay enough to support you even ft, men just wandering off when it suits and paying sod all and no one bothered about it and the women being penalised should they dare want a boyfriend. Oh and not forgetting attitudes like the one above.

@Grumpymug That type of attitude sucks quite frankly and the only reason I'm not in financial hardship is because I'm bloody careful with my money (Years of living with a financially abusive alcoholic will do that to a person)

I've got an appointment with CAB on Monday, I've asked BF to print out statements showing his rent, bills and council tax etc, also any electoral roll information.

I've listened back to the conversation with DWP today and I didn't pick up on it at the time, But the lady actually said ''you can't just wait until you're ready'' with regard to moving in, Now she didn't say it unkindly but WTF?
Surely to christ waiting until I am ready is exactly what I should be doing.

Gosh, I am shocked at the spare time thing. It sounds bollocks to me. I've not had anyone in my life since I split with DS dad, but I cannot understand how 'free/spare time' can be the decider of if you are single or in a couple. sharing time does not mean sharing money!

Most people I imagine take things very slowly when kids are involved. However in the earlier days isn't that when you are most excited about this new potential partner and naturally want to spend all your time together? How can this mean that you are no longer considered a single claim when you are still paying everything yourself? Absolute madness

Bonkers isn't it.
How can people ensure they are following the rules when there are none to follow?

@michaelbaubles I know what you mean, I take things quite literally and asked several times what the stance was with relationships etc as I'm very conscious that I want everything to be above board. I asked where it stated all of this as I was sure I had read all of the information available and the response I got was "it is somewhere in all the paperwork"
I came out feeling that now I have to be overcautious as it's all a bit of a grey area. It came across almost as though it was easier never to have a relationship whilst claiming UC in case you unintentionally broke any of these "rules "

It's setting people up to fail isn't it?

My exH lives with his gf but on paper he lives with his dad. He pays his dad via standing order each month and his dad gives it him back in cash. He's on the electoral register at his dad's. Totally screwing the system.

@HoneycombAndAJackass The only thing I knew about the holidays is that if you have a weekly benefit such as job seekers then you wouldn't be paid for the time you are away. When working full time and just claiming top up I see it as irrelevant as it would not change your payments anyway (unless you are out of the country for a month)
This is what is so confusing, so it is ok to have people over as long as you are not having sex with them? How is that even judged? (can you imagine the questions in an interview)
To be honest I think the advisers need a clear definition of the rules as it feels like they just say things willynilly and bring their own judgement into it.
Obviously I am grateful for the small help it provides but whilst trying to be clear and above board it makes me feel like i'm doing something wrong all of the time.

It's a horrible feeling isn't it :(

I can't work full time so unless I win the lottery or move my BF in, I'll always need that top up.
It just puts you on the back foot in a relationship and if the BF in question was an arse like my ex, It's a recipe for disaster.

@HoneycombAndAJackass

Yes same here, well getting there but it's been a long and rough road as I've slowly climbed up bit by bit to get better pay and I have learned to be so tight it's now meaning that I'm starting building savings for the first time in years until the washing machine broke 🙄 but it's due to being in the red constantly. I still don't trust it when everything is paid bill wise and I still have money in the account.
But the lady actually said ''you can't just wait until you're ready'' with regard to moving in, Now she didn't say it unkindly but WTF?
WTF indeed! So the DWP now get to make relationship choices for you? It's either move in more or less immediately or live like a hermit?
I really hope cab can shed some light on this for you, though as a pp said it sounds like the rules are deliberately vague in order to change the goalposts as they like. Hopefully I'll work my way out of TC before I get moved to UC because things like this are so wrong.

It's basically being used to control the sex lives of feckless single women! Don't you dare enjoy your freedom AND sex with a man you like. Accept you can't have a sex life and also independence. Choose Wife .
It's also a MASSIVE safeguarding failure imo-moving men in with your children before you are ready because of financial sanctions.. what could possibly go wrong..?

Precisely @HepzibahGreen
How very dare I want to have a life.
I have no doubts about BF (other than being messy, His rented house isn't the tidiest/cleanest but then it is three men living together and none of them really care about aesthetics...These particular men, Not men in general) But what are the options for a single Mum on benefits?

1.Spend a couple of nights together per week, Hope that is enough to get to know one another, Then move in together and hope there are no nasty surprises waiting down the line? This isn't enough to base whether or not you want to share one anothers lives is it?

1. Spend most of your free time together and risk being deemed as already 'living together', Presenting you with the option of moving in together before you are ready or spending very little time with the person you love. How is that a life?

3.Be reckless and move any old tinder date in with you and your children and keep your fingers crossed?

When I was in a relationship with DH before we got married and I was a single mum on benefits, we did option 1. We saw each other a couple of nights a week for about four years before we got engaged, then another year before we got married (me usually spending the night at his place, as it made more sense because of its location/space). We got married first and then moved in together, because it made more sense for our financial/housing situation (I had a rented council flat, which DH helped me to buy before we moved into his owned house, but we didn't want to do that without being married first). We've been married for 8 years now and there's been no nasty surprises! I don't think I ever really thought about benefit fraud rules as a reason for not spending all our free time together - it was only 1-2 nights a week simply because we both have social lives away from each other and outside interests, so we've never been the type of couple to only spend time with each other. And I wouldn't have had the childcare to spend so many evenings with him anyway. He had his own house with a mortgage, and was the sole name on all bills there, and was on the electoral roll there. He never contributed to any bills at my house, but he always paid when we went out on dates. Luckily we never had any issues with investigations.

I agree that there is a real safeguarding risk when men move in with single mums at a very early stage - I only introduced my dc to him after one year and would never have considered moving in together with him any earlier than we did.

Not everyone lives together or stays over before marriage. Nothing wrong with seeing each other a couple of times a week. I agree the system is nuts but don't believe it's based on leisure time at all. However you aren't living like a single person-he's there most of the week and staying over. You need to be careful here.

The guy wants contribute but OP won’t let him. Why do people not read the thread properly. Mumsnet will paint the man as a bad guy no matter what

@Conks it's easy to offer when you know someone can't or won't accept. Many of us are speaking from experience.

still quite cross at the whole not being able to be told clearly what is acceptable and what isn't

Imagine if there was a checklist though. You'd have the cheeky fucker brigade who ARE on the fiddle who would have a checklist about how to keep just 1% on the right side of the law. You'd have crazy situations with women whose partners work on oil rigs or are deployed on submarines being classed as single because the kids don't see Dad for a month. or because it's her name on the gas bill.

You can't define a relationship in those terms because every relationship is different.

FWith no help from my DS dad or his family. It is incredibly hard*
It certainly is, been there, but there are both extremes when it comes to single parent benefits. I have a friend who has three children by two dads. She gets over £1,500 in maintenance and her mortgage is paid by her first husband as part of the divorce settlement. With the benefit she claims, she is very well off and enjoy luxuries few parents get, let alone single ones. She would still be in a position to enjoy luxuries with benefits but as the rules say maintenance is not taken into account, she claims all she can.

It is always going to be a very subjective matter. It is a good thing that benefits reduce the number of single mums rushing to move in with new partners without some good vibes that the relationship is going to be fulfilling and committed as children deserve stability. At the same time, where is the incentive for a single parent to move with her partner when doing so means losing their financial independence and remain a SAHM or working limited hours whilst still enjoying spending most of their time with their partner?

What is deemed reasonable? 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, never? It will depend on each situation although as a whole, I would have thought that 2xyears was aiming towards the reasonable amount of time to make that commitment.