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Benefits - does this seem realistic?

173 replies

Ivy44 · 04/05/2019 18:19

I was giving our office cleaner a lift home from one day (we chat a lot and she lives on my way home) last week and she openly told me how much she gets in benefits, I was a bit taken aback by the amount she gets as I keep reading articles about people on benefits being in poverty, due to all the cuts. She is a single parent of two children who works 16 hours a week as a cleaner, the children are 9 and 13.

Salary - £550 per month
Housing benefit - £360 per month (covers rent on a 3 bed council house)
£180 per month child maintenance
£1,120 per month in child/working tax credits and child benefits

This is the equivalent of a 35k a year gross salary. This isn’t supposed to be judgemental as she’s a nice lady who does a good job for us but I am a bit shocked at how much money is available in benefits, given the articles I keep seeing about poverty, food banks, teachers having to buy food for kids who go to school hungry etc.

OP posts:
Ivy44 · 04/05/2019 21:22

SciFiScream

She just came out with it all one day. We were discussing holidays. I haven’t told her how much I earn (almost double). I live in a nice house in a nice area but don’t care for cars or designer handbags so I don’t know if it’s obvious that I earn a good salary.

If I envy anything about her, it’s her relaxed happy go lucky attitude to life. I am anything but relaxed and happy go lucky, planning makes me feel happy.

That is horrible, that people are thinking of helping death along because they are financially fucked.

OP posts:
Gingerkittykat · 04/05/2019 21:23

This post is brought to you by the Daily Mail so you can all froth at the mouth at the unfairness of the benefits system.

Firstly, child maintenance is not taken into account for tax credits, so take that off your tax calculation.

Secondly, child benefit of 34.40 or roughly 135 per month is not taxable.

Thirdly, the calculation on the benefit calculator shows she would receive £194 tax credit and £37 housing benefit a week, totally different from your figure of £1120 a month.

I've no idea what that would be as gross income.

Yes, she will struggle when her children are older if she doesn't get another job but there are loads of people out there who manage on full time NMW.

I find it utterly bizarre that firstly you were giving her a lift home as cleaners normally work different hours from the rest of the building and secondly that she would have that type of conversation with detailed figures with someone.

zsazsajuju · 04/05/2019 21:23

ALso I should add that my relative I am talking about above spends money in a way that horrifies me and I have a six figure salary. But she sees it as entirely necessary (buying pre made meals, taxi service everywhere, shopping at Waitrose, etc).

ThisMustBeMyDream · 04/05/2019 21:26

Ahhh my specialist subject. And close to my own heart as a person in need of financial assistance.

The figures are incorrect. I know exactly what her entitlement would be. If it is as you say, she is recieving DLA for one of her kids or childcare costs. Otherwise it is this:
Monthly (calender)
Wage £550
Housing benefit £229
Child maintenance £180
Working/child tax credit and child benefit combined £975.
Totals £1934.

The thing is, she is raising two kids. Alone. On that. You ever tried doing it? It is no walk in the park I can guarantee you. A person who had a gross of 35k with 2 kids would still be able to receive benefits in certain circumstances. Especially if they had childcare costs or a child/ren with a disability.

Thanks to the welfare state, I managed to keep my career (just about) as a midwife when my ex husband fucked off. Am I more worthy than your colleague because I had the luck to have a career? Not in my mind I am not.

I have 3 kids. And a mortgage. I also have a child with a life long disability. Between my wage for 24 hours work, tax credits, child benefit, maintenance and my child's DLA I have over £4200 a month. I get £20k per year in child tax credits alone. But I also pay out £12k in childcare.... so 🤷. Am I rich? Absolutely not. I haven't been abroad for 8 years. My kitchen is falling apart. I do not have a pension or savings. My house is an interest only mortgage. I literally just keep afloat with the costs of raising children on my own. I am not living any kind of life of luxury. My childcare costs are ridiculous (to me). Would I rather earn 35k and not have to raise 3 kids singlehandedly? Well, I'd have 2.2k all to myself... yeah. I'd be far better off. 🤷 If only life was that simple.

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 04/05/2019 21:26

To give a bit of background:
Tax Credits are a bit different from subsistance benefits.
They weren't really intended to be a safety net for the very poorest. Instead, they were supposed to lift working familys out of poverty by incentising low paid employment.
It should therefore be no surprise that people on tax credits are not in poverty. They arent supposed to be.
Prior to tax credits, it wouldn't have been possible for your cleaner to survive on her earnings.
In fact, it might not have been possible for her to cover the cost of her childcare. There was a real poverty trap and many single parents were simply unable to get off subsistance benefits.
Although its true that tax credits can deincentivise people from seeking more hours, this is preferable to the prior situation where people were deincentivised from working at all.
If it makes you feel any better, OP, the new Universal Credit is, not only, less generous to part time workers it even introduces conditionality so that people are actually forced (at the threat of sanctions) to seek more work.

zsazsajuju · 04/05/2019 21:34

I suppose the issue here, or st least one issue is that incomes end up sort of flattened. You may as well be a cleaner on tax credits than a full time teacher or nurse as then you will be over the the threshold but have to pay for childcare. So no incentives or less incentives to work.

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 04/05/2019 21:48

I think any benefit system creates unfairness around the cut off point of entitlement. You can always point to someone who is just above the threshold and feels like they're losing out.
The alternative is not to bother at all- which would cause unacceptable poverty and hardship.
At least tax credits taper gently away as compared to the old Income Support which just cut off if you were earning anything at all.

Babyroobs · 04/05/2019 21:58

On Universal credit she would probably have to up her hours to 25 as her children are school aged. It is very odd that people have been able to continue on just 16 hours ( on tax credits) until their kids leave education.

Ivy44 · 04/05/2019 21:58

Working and child tax credits sound like a benefit trap to me. Whilst I admire those posters who have used the benefits system to break away from an abusive partner and used the benefits to improve their situation and create long term financial stability for themselves. I am concerned about what is going to happen to single, middle aged, women in unskilled jobs when the benefits stop.

Maybe get rid of the whole lot and implement an unconditional universal basic income. Subsistence level that people can choose to top up by working. We would have to sort out the housing situation first though.

OP posts:
Whatistheworldcominto · 04/05/2019 22:09

@Ivy44

I agree somewhat that it can create a problem later on for the single parents who are in low paid and PT work - but the same type of problem as a sahm when the children become financially independent and the breadwinner either wants to retire or reduce hours etc, or the relationship breaks down - I've had a couple of friends this has happened to, one husband cleared off and the other wanted to reduce his hours and move to seperate finances within the relationship - I was actually really surprised, and they expressed regret that they'd not worked as now it was so much harder to get back to it.
Thing is though, it's often not feasible to plan and then actually be able to do it, for the future without the kids, when you're in the situation, because it costs time and money. I have started in the last couple of years when I've needed less childcare to do things like courses, and a little more income. I got a slightly better job because of it, but it's damned slow progress tbh. I still think that min wage should actually be the living wage, and the living wage actually possible to live on, that'd be a start.

Ivy44 · 04/05/2019 22:37

@whatistheworldcomingto

Which comes back to my points about universal free child care and universal basic income, for all citizens.

I have to go now but my friend went back to work after one child, got pregnant again really quickly and the next ones were twins. No point going back to work as her salary would have covered nursery, commuting and bits and bobs of work costs. If child care was free, she would have gone back to work. She is quite highly skilled too. She is back at work but behind her peers as she had four years off.

OP posts:
Walnutwhipster · 04/05/2019 22:45

If the dad leaves work she'd lose all the CM and get nothing extra because it isn't taken into account. Also when her children leave education she'll lose all her tax credits and CB. The amount of top up for a single person is tiny. I doubt very much she'd be able to afford anything and be financially screwed.

AnnieMay100 · 04/05/2019 23:19

She gets a couple of hundred more than me in tax credits and I’m on a much lower wage also 16 hours. She’s very lucky. It might seem a lot to you but it just about covers the basics especially as a single parent footing the bills alone. Maintenance is for my children and doesn’t get used on household expenses and my rent is double what the housing benefit pays. Sadly it’s the usually the only option to keep your head above water as a single mum, full work makes you worse off generally and then with childcare on top it’s impossible.

Graphista · 05/05/2019 00:52

Wow! Some...interesting responses on here.

Ugh who's up for benefit bashing bingo

"I know ONE person on benefits I know a little about their circumstances and from that I'm opining the entire system is 'too generous'" ONE does not equate to the experience of millions, you DON'T know her full circumstances and therefore are not in a position to assess whether it's fair or not.

"I don't understaaaand" tons of info available by simple googling or even reading the MANY threads on the subject here on mn

"But that's as if she's getting a salary of X amount" no it's really not the same at all

"I'm not being judgmental" yes! Yes you are!

Someone in her circumstances but working full time earning £26k would still get £188 child tax credits and £149 child benefit monthly too. That's £2256 ctc and £1788 per annum making their annual total income £30,044 compared to her current £26,520:

So that blows the "you're better off not working" out the water. If you REALLY believe being on benefits and not working is easier go ahead and try it! It's uncertain, at the whim of politicians and civil servants the vast majority of whom are incredibly privately wealthy and have zero experience of ever going without anything let alone basics!

"My point is, are articles in the Guardian, saying that 20% of children in the UK live in poverty actually correct." If anything that's likely a conservative estimate as they can only measure those that are "visible" being poor makes people invisible often.

What are YOUR outgoings op? Could you live on that amount? Could you live solely on the wage and child maintenance?

Child maintenance is NOT a benefit. It's (thankfully) no longer included in calculations. It used to be and this very much meant families, children in poverty - because the benefits system always has been and always will be too slow to adjust to people's circumstances - at least when it's not to the govts favour. I was on benefits when cm was included in calculations, if ex paid one month, even if he only paid £5 it was assumed he was paying the full amount regularly and wasn't adjusted until I'd proven that he'd not paid at all for 3 months running. That's why it was changed because there will be mothers in the same position as her who DON'T get cm of the same amount or reliably. Far too many men are not paying when they should be and are paying far far less than they should be.

ANY change in circumstances is a nightmare to deal with.

If THEY cock up you never even get an apology let alone acknowledgement or help with the consequences.

If YOU (even inadvertently) cock up they come down on you like a ton of bricks.

I hold 2 degrees inc one in English and a vocational legal qualification and even I wouldn't dream of attempting to complete the forms myself. They're deliberately designed to confuse and obfuscate. I get help from the experts who are dealing with this daily.

In reality I suspect she is just about getting by while also having the vast majority of the mental load for raising 2 kids and yet you're begrudging her the help she is getting which she is deemed entitled to even under this extremely anti welfare govt.

If employers paid people a decent living wage the benefits bill would reduce enormously - that's who things like tax credits are REALLY. subsidising.

"Why should her employers pay her a massive salary she's a cleaner! An unskilled job" fuck me! Human decency? Because why should the state be subsidising wealthy employers? Because with our living costs that's the true market rate? I take it you work for free? No? Thought not! Unskilled does NOT equal worthless! HTH!

"Is this because other people aren’t claiming the benefits that they are entitled to?" Giving you the benefit of the doubt still...

Yes partly BUT not because they've chosen not to but because unless you know the system inside out and know exactly what you're eligible for. Know why this is? Because its policy (and has been for many years) not to tell people what they are eligible for unless they specifically ask. This is particularly true of more specialised benefits. I've even had benefits "advisors" outright lie that I wasn't eligible for things I absolutely was! There are still many many such instances being reported.

Organisations that can help are limited not only by lack of funds but restrictions on their advertising so people aren't aware of their existence.

I'm in receipt of disability benefits, they're under particular scrutiny at the moment because the sick and disabled are easy targets because they rarely have the energy (emotional or physical) or the ability to challenge unfair treatment.

Again many multiple examples in the press and reported in activist groups (which have sprung up out of necessity) of assessors outright lying, claiming paralysed people can walk, people born blind can suddenly see, people barely managing to breathe dying of cancer "fit to work", learning disabilities instantly curable by a mere stroke of their pen. Miracle workers!

In addition most benefits have been frozen since 2015 meaning they've gone down in real terms.

The introduction of UC has been disastrous with some claimants left waiting months until they receive their first payment - but their "old" benefits are stopped immediately the day their UC claim starts - BEFORE they receive any money.

These people form a large part of those using food banks etc.

Another large group that need to are those awaiting their first pay cheque - because again the majority of benefits cease as soon as start work, even if they are still eligible for them - the dreaded quote "while your claim is being reassessed" And even those that aren't supposed to even be paused often are "in error" these "errors" if you get them resolved at all is usually many months later - from personal experience, that of friends and family as well as reading that of many others.

This is one major reason why many on benefits are fearful of returning to work - because they know it's likely to mean AT LEAST a month with NO money AT ALL coming in - could your family survive with NO INCOME for a month? Possibly 6 months or longer?

"She could work more hours to be fair, as the kids are at school." What about school holidays? A low wage rarely covers holiday childcare. You also don't know if her or the children's health is 100% may be why she works part time or if she has other caring responsibilities...

She may have said what she did to avoid an awkward conversation with someone she barely knows or to save face.

"Someone who has spent 15 years working as a part time cleaner may well find it difficult to find any other kind of work." Well you don't actually know this do you? She could have a better cv than you're aware of, she could be or could in the future undertake further education or training, she could if her health allows simply take on more hours cleaning or specialised cleaning. A friend of mine has her own specialist cleaning company, my mums been a cleaner at times because the hours and location suited her (school hours, local to our schools) but while she left school young with few qualifications she later obtained a-levels and a diploma via adult education and went on to be head of security in a supermarket as well as holding other managerial roles along the way when she was happy to take on salaried roles with longer hours as my siblings and I grew older. I've known cleaners with degrees and PhD's who were doing the job for a variety of personal reasons mainly relating to hours and caring responsibilities. Just because you know her as a cleaner doesn't mean you know her.

"For those being nasty, you never know when you might be in need of help, plenty marriages, jobs etc end, no one knows what's round the corner." Absolutely!

When I had dd I was happily married, had a good well paid job, had my health and I believed the potential for more success career wise.

A mere 5 years later I was a disabled, single parent, unable to work and on benefits. A nightmare divorce, car accident and other health issues and I now know dds own seemingly minor ailments many related to her later diagnosed disability. Nobody could have predicted that.

"I do know her circumstances actually" no you don't you know only what she's been willing to tell you in an acquaintance relationship. There are things about my circumstances my closest friend even my mum don't know. I believe that's true of most people.

"My point is that, are we building up a problem for the future? If she goes full time, when the kids leave home and the benefits stop, full time hours on minimum wage is a salary of just over 1k per month net. That’s a huge drop in income from 2.2k per month net. Will we have an increasing amount of single, middle aged women, living in poverty in the next few years? Is that not a concern?" As a country? Yes. Because the cost of living continues to rise, people's health & fitness decline as they age, contrary to govt claims there AREN'T more jobs so she could well struggle to find full time employment, the cuts to ALL education means people are neither qualified nor confident to take on higher level roles, an ageing but retired population also needs money to live on which people are struggling to attain...

"I’d throw in the cost of housing too." On another thread there was a link to an article talking about the lack of taxation of landlords feeding into more people becoming unscrupulous/incompetent landlords. Housing is VERY poorly regulated in this country, we're only barely starting to address this - try getting a private tenancy if you're in receipt of ANY amount of housing benefit - virtually impossible. Also a dearth of social housing thanks to Thatcherite policies on right to buy PLUS stopping councils building more.

Notsuchasmugmarriednow1 - wow! Utterly disgusting posts from you. Have you EVER struggled financially yourself? I mean really struggled to buy food and other essentials? I strongly suspect not with that attitude.

"When will some people remove their heads from their arses and realise we rely on these unskilled roles? If everyone in unskilled jobs got better jobs tomorrow society would collapse" exactly the shameful snobbery of some is disgusting and says far more about them than any poor or low paid worker.

Indianamolewoman - no way she is paying for all that on a low paid wage and benefits not possible. So she must have income/support from elsewhere - which could also be legitimate and within limits for her still to receive those benefits but she could also be up to something shady.

Nat6999 · 05/05/2019 01:43

When I first became a single parent I was still working, DS at that point hadn't been diagnosed with ASD as he is now, I got my salary working p/t as a civil servant, working & child tax credits, child benefit & the lowest level of DLA for myself. I had to pay 50% of my rent & almost all of my council tax, plus the usual bills for gas, electric, phone, TV licence etc. When I had paid my rent, council tax & all of my other bills, I had less than £50 a week to feed & clothe myself & my DS. If an unexpectedly large bill came in I sometimes had to choose between paying the bill or buying food. Now I'm retired on health grounds, I get my pension, Employment & support Allowance, Child tax Credits with premiums for DS having ASD, PIP for me & DLA for DS & Child Benefit. I get more money coming in but all my rent is covered by Housing Benefit because of qualifying benefits. That is where the biggest discrepancy in benefits is, it shouldn't matter where money comes from, it should be the actual amount of income that is taken in to consideration. Just like child maintenance, because my ex is on benefits I only get £5 a week for DS, he gets £300 per week, if he was earning that I would get £45 a week. Don't blame anyone claiming benefits, blame the screwed up system.

Tippexy · 05/05/2019 01:47

I think it’s the equivalent of a bit more than a £35k salary and of course it’s relevant to convert it to a salary equivalent.

It does make you feel like an absolute mug trying to work hard and do the right thing!

Ivy44 · 05/05/2019 08:59

I pay a lot into my pension (as it’s something I didn’t do when I was younger) so my net income is 3.1k a month after tax and pension.

Outgoings are £600 for nursery
Mortgage is £600
Bills are £500 ((£200 contribution from DP)
Food is £200 (split 50/50 with DP)

(I earn more than DP and the mortgage is in my name, that’s why we split it as above and the bills and food are for 3.4 people as we have 1 DC plus DP has a daughter who stays with us 3 nights a week). We don’t live a flashy lifestyle.

Outgoings are £1,600 per month.

Colleague doesn’t pay mortgage or nursery so will still have a decent amount left out of the £1,800 she gets after her rent has been paid. I’m not begrudging her this, just commenting that it’s not poverty. Say she spends £700 on bills and food (like we do) - she’s got £1,100 a month left for after school club for the younger one, clothes, children’s activities, holidays, to save, the odd night out or treat. It isn’t poverty. Although it’s likely she will be in poverty when the children grow up and the benefits stop.

As @scifiscream said, I’m going to have a chat with her about what she plans to do when the kids grow up. They are at school and she only does 16 hours a week work so there is some time for her to do some courses and lift herself out of min wage. Work May pay for some of the courses - I’ll check she’s aware of this, might be a good starting point.

OP posts:
Bookworm4 · 05/05/2019 11:07

@Graphista
Excellent post ⭐️
@Ivy44
You'll have a chat about her future? How fuckin dare you think you're entitled to do that! Keep your snotty nose out this woman's business, everything you have said reeks of jealousy and bitterness, comparing your expenses to hers when you've got a partner contributing and supporting you run a home and raise kids is a joke.
I hope some you arrogant twats actually need help one day and see how you like judgemental snobs looking down on you; your perfect life's aren't guaranteed.

Whatistheworldcominto · 05/05/2019 13:17

@Ivy44

On the basis of the figures, no, it doesn't sound like poverty. But it's the maintenance lifting her above that. And of course I don't know her personal circumstances or finances.

Sounds to me like a lot of people would prefer she were in poverty. That'd learn her wouldn't it!
This thread, along with others show single mums (and yes I do mean mum's because I rarely have seen these attitudes towards single dads) cannot win.
End up a single mum barely keeping your head above water and receive no maintenance from the father? Well that's your own fault, and tough. And you should bow and scrape to all tax payers as it's them paying for you! Let's conveniently forget the fact that a lot in that situation pay tax too though
End up a single mum and the father does pay towards the upkeep of his children? How dare you not live in poverty and have something over and above what you need to pay out! You're making a mug out of Everyone else!

Work a min wage unskilled job and you don't deserve a wage to live on. Receive benefits to ensure you can live - scrounger!
Sounds to me that some people just need someone to kick really.

Ilovetolurk · 05/05/2019 13:57

child benefit should be universal. Due to the reason you gave but also because universal benefits mean that the people who contribute more feel that they are getting something back and are therefore more likely to support a welfare state

I agree that effectively removing child benefit from high earners has caused a Them and Us disconnect and do wonder whether this was deliberate for reasons other than the immediate money saving benefit

And whichever PP said child benefit is not benefits is wrong

Eastie77 · 05/05/2019 16:29

OP, do stop this "I don't begrudge her.." line because it's quite obvious you do. You don't sound concerned for her future or just 'surprised' about her income. You sound pissed off. Perhaps you should stop giving her a lift home (on that massive income she should be able to buy a car, no?) and let your resentment cool off.

I'm not sure I understand the question you asked me earlier but to be clear, I think it's entirely possible to claim benefits and live in poverty. So I don't think the poverty stricken people I described are individuals who simply don't claim benefitsHmm

There are millions of people in this country eeking out an existence, struggling to navigate the vagaries of UC and living below the poverty line. Whether you want to believe it or not many people on benefits are the working poor who have their meagre incomes propped up by the welfare system.
The problem is not their laziness. If their earnings were higher they would not be reliant on benefit top-ups to pay rent and childcare costs.

You seem to know the ins and outs of this woman's life but there may be a specific reason, unconnected to benefit loss, that explains why she doesn't work more hours. Even if there isn't it is none of your business. Unless she has asked you for careers advice it is not your place to 'advise' her or ask her what she plans to do with her life when her children are older.

RubberTreePlant · 05/05/2019 16:31

OP, do stop this "I don't begrudge her.." line because it's quite obvious you do. You don't sound concerned for her future or just 'surprised' about her income. You sound pissed off

Yup.

RubberTreePlant · 05/05/2019 16:32

I agree that effectively removing child benefit from high earners has caused a Them and Us disconnect and do wonder whether this was deliberate

I'm quite sure it was. It was the Gideon and Dave "hardworking families v scroungers" propaganda project.

Graphista · 05/05/2019 18:44

Sorry op but I am not buying that your bills are that cheap! Especially £200 for 3-4 people? Come on!

Mine are more than that! And I am on a very limited budget living in a cheap part of the country!

And quit the faux naïf "I'm just trying to understand" crap! There's numerous threads on here, articles online and other sources you could have gone to for answers to your questions, you're not new to mn I recognise your username as a frequent contributor so it really doesn't wash!

And DO NOT "have a chat" with her about when her kids become adults in fact I strongly advise you avoid discussing finances with this lady altogether. It's clearly riling you that 😱a mere cleaner in receipt of benefits DARE not to be poverty stricken! It's actually NONE of your business because she's done nothing wrong, she's just like millions of others doing what she needs to in order to raise her kids - something which is DAMN HARD as a single mum and which, may as pps have pointed out (and I suspect is the case too) include the fact at least one of her family is disabled.

You have a decent income and security yourself, how about you appreciate that, be thankful you're not in her position (yet - nobody knows what's around the corner) and treat her with decency & respect.

@Bookworm4 thank you.

@whatistheworldcominto you are spot on! As a single mum of 16 years, during which time I've been a working mum, full time student mum (also working part time then), working mum again then disabled non working mum - at no point have I EVER been in the right.

The amount of shit we get from dirty looks to outright uninvited shitty comments both online AND in real life is a fucking disgrace! Especially considering its 2019! On other threads linked to or directly addressing the subject I've often witnessed or experienced people who've never been one try to say the stigma is reducing or even doesn't exist at all - I can assure you it does!

On the child benefit issue I believe several organisations have shown its actually COSTING the govt/taxpayers having it means tested, and if so that would strongly suggest it was an ideological decision rather than a budgetary one - which has been true of most of the changes the tory govt have made to the welfare system, because they don't agree with it.

But they know they'd lose too many votes if they abolished it outright so they're making it increasingly difficult to access.

There was a slight "rude awakening" for some tory voters when they were shocked to learn that as far as the tory govt was concerned tax credits were counted as a welfare benefit, they fell for David Cameron's fudging and dodging on the subject in the run up to the 2015 GE, only to find their families were very quickly worse off under the govt they'd voted for.

When the full UC rollout happens that will hit many more because those who still don't think they're "benefits scroungers" but are in receipt of tax credits will suddenly find themselves being treated exactly the same as other benefit recipients - will make for very interesting times indeed. Myself and others have already noticed on here many posters who it will affect wrongly thinking they won't be affected because they don't know how it works.

The tories believe poverty - even if as a result of sickness/disability - is a moral failing - they're right - but the failing lies with the wealthy hoarding "their" money rather than investing it or paying it forward or even paying their employees an actual living wage!

Ugh yes the "hardworking" bollocks!

A cleaner will work damn hard, especially a good one - so why are they only worth a minimum wage? Whereas I've worked with execs and consultant Drs who barely work a 3 day week! On a far higher salary than most cleaners could dream of. It's a joke!

Personally I'd set up a link between highest paid person in a company and lowest paid - if execs etc were paid according to what their lowest paid employee was paid I bet we'd soon see an improvement in wages for the lowest paid!

I'd also pay MP's the national average (and not assessed by them!) and remove the vast majority of expenses (I'd keep minimal travel expenses available for those mps coming from further than is commutable daily and have accommodation owned by the state - there's several buildings in london that would be suitable - for when they needed to stay in London overnight) it's completely ludicrous that they're on £79k! And yet pay for sod all of their own normal living costs! Plus second homes, flash cars etc.

There are issues op and yes as a country we're storing up trouble for future generations - but that's not the fault of the poor!

woodhill · 05/05/2019 19:47

A doctor would have to study at university for 7 years and pay fees. There is no comparison.

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