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Who's being greedy here? MIL's legacy

66 replies

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:21

Apologies in advance for the loooong post. It's complicated. My absentee brother in law wants to penalise us for not getting him his inheritance fast enough.

DP has a brother – let’s call him Bob – who lives in the US. He's been there for 30 years, has a career and a family, and has rarely visited the UK.

In 2014, my MIL (elderly, losing her sight, no longer wanted to be responsible for crumbling home) sold her house and moved in with me, my DP and our daughter. It was a joint decision, as with progressive blindness her care needs were obviously going to increase. She lived a 2-hour drive away so popping in regularly was never going to work.

It wasn't an easy decision; DP and his mum had never got on well but there was nobody else. It was incredibly difficult getting her packed up and out of her house. She was a hoarder, and DP and I were going down every weekend for MONTHS parking our then 3 year old DD in front of DVDs, surrounded by rusty nails and weedkiller, sorting through endless drifts of paper and junk.

Anyway. We bought a property together – most of deposit paid by MIL, mortgage by me and DP.

Her money (less £20k which she kept as cash) went on the deposit and renovations. We built her a lovely annexe and continued to develop the property as a whole after her money was gone. We also the mortgage, bills maintenance etc. It was a bit of a wreck and we've done a lot to it.

We all lived here together until MIL's death in October 2017. Meanwhile she was INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT to live with. She and DD had a good relationship and for both of them it was a positive. But to her children (and me by extension) she could be a nightmare and both DP and I ended up on antidepressants. I became suicidal towards the end. It was literally that bad – and the guilt of thinking we would either have to move her back out again, or go mad, was horrendous. Her final illness was quick, and before that she seemed healthy and strong enough to go at least another decade.

Anyway. Enter Bob. From the start we made it clear both to MIL and Bob that although she was technically gifting DP all of her money (couldn’t get joint ownership at her age so the house is in my name and his only), she still rightfully owned 36% of the property as a whole (the percentage she invested at the start).

We said that after she died, we would get the house valued and we would agree to pay Bob half of whatever her 36% stake was then worth (regardless of us paying all bills and upkeep and spending on further development). We made sure all of this was in writing.

MIL became terminally ill and came home to be nursed in her own place. Over the course of the next six weeks or so we basically cared for her ourselves, with a couple of daily visits from nurses who washed her. She had a colostomy bag which I dealt with entirely except when the nurses were here.

We fitted all this around full-time work and looking after our (by this time) 6-yr-old.

Bob came over for a couple of weeks to help, and we talked a lot about how she’d been. He and DP realised that their mum had been bending the truth to both of them for decades, driving a wedge between them. They each thought the other was her favourite son. They each thought the other had said hurtful things that he really hadn’t. As a result a good decade of semi-estrangement started to heal.

So now she is gone, God rest her basically decent but bloody infuriating soul.

It’s been 11 months since she died and we’ve been on a rollercoaster trying to work out whether we will have to sell up to pay Bob back, or not. There were no timeframes in the will and we never discussed them, but back in April I lost my job and we thought, that’s it, we’re toast. We told Bob we were selling. But then we looked at the market and realised we would struggle to get back what we’d spent. And the thought of moving out of our home after everything else, and putting DD through more upheaval was horrible.

So we went back to Bob and said we wanted to try to avoid selling in a bad market. We said we were confident we could raise the money by spring 2019 to pay him back. (That will be 18mo after she died).

He didn’t really respond to this, and never gave any indication of wanting the money urgently.

Wanting to get things sorted, we wrote out a proposal for him, suggesting that in appreciation of him waiting we would get the solicitor to pay Bob all of the money from MIL’s bank accounts (about £25k) up front to help him with cash flow. (We’d take our half off what we paid him for the house.)

We also said that we would guarantee that should Brexit cause house to prices slip so far that the house is worth less than we’ve all invested in it, he’ll still get half of her original stake.

In his response Bob didn’t acknowledge this, or the offer of the cash, but simply asked us to also guarantee any slippage in exchange rates between Sterling and the US dollar between now and next spring when raise the money.

DP is enraged and their relationship is in tatters again. Bob has never acknowledged any of the work we did moving her out, any of the suffering (he knows, I told him) that we went through over the last few years, or any of the money we’ve spent developing and maintaining the property that he has a share in.

To not even mention that, but to ask for even more???

His response (very much on the high horse) is to say that not insisting we sell last April (6 months after MIL died) was his way of acknowledging everything we have done, and that he feels perfectly justified in asking us to underwrite the UK economy in return for the delay.

He’s acting as though DP has borrowed money from him. I suppose technically you could argue he has. But morally? Legally?

If you’ve made it to the end of this post, thank you! Please let me know what you think of this mess.

OP posts:
NonaGrey · 12/09/2018 14:25

I think you go to your solicitor and find out exactly what Bob is entitled to in law and then pay him that.

HavelockVetinari · 12/09/2018 14:29

Nona is correct. He's probably entitled to a lot less than you're offering!

Nellyelora · 12/09/2018 14:33

Does MIL have a will? If not she's intestate in which case seeing a solicitor would be sensible. He may be entitled to more or less than what you are suggesting

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:34

Thanks Nona, thanks Havelock.

Do you really think he could be entitled to less?

OP posts:
SassitudeandSparkle · 12/09/2018 14:36

Sorry OP, but I am with Bob here. You've got an asset which is likely to appreciate in value with your MIL's investment in the future. You don't want to sell the house, so I don't know why you told him you would - that will raise doubts in his mind if he'll ever get that final share. You see the agreement as formalising the arrangements but to Bob it just sounds like agreeing to a delay. I'd think twice about formalising any agreement to delay in case it set a precedant, tbh.

He's entitled to his share of the value at the date of your MIL's death, not when you sell the house I'd have thought, but possibly with interest added due to the delay in payment.

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:36

Nellyelora, she didn't die intestate. DP and I drafted and got her to sign a will (just about) saying that half of her stake in the house should go to Bob.

That's partly what's infuriating. We could have taken advantage, but we wanted to be decent and knew without the will Bob would have to pay tax on anything we paid back to him.

OP posts:
Butterymuffin · 12/09/2018 14:40

Is that will legal? I would definitely speak to a solicitor for advice.

SassitudeandSparkle · 12/09/2018 14:40

Have you had any specialist advice on this OP, because the other thing I'd look at is the situation over the deposit being gifted within 7 years of death, sorry to say (estate would be liable for any tax due but it would reduce the amount available).

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:40

SassitudeandSparkle, we said we were selling because we thought we would have to as I lost my job. Then I managed to replace some of my income.

If he's going to hold us to his entitlement to half of the value of her stake when she died, then I'm going to go over all of our bank statements and work out exactly what we've paid for over the years over and above. Which is a lot. I'll also be charging him for nursing his mother.

OP posts:
Aprilshowersnowastorm · 12/09/2018 14:41

Maybe draw up a carer's package similar to what you provided for mil and bill him for 50%?

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:45

Butterymuffin, the will is fine. It's with a solicitor who is just waiting for DP and Bob to tell them what to do with the cash in her bank account.
They need to agree between them what half of her original stake is now worth. Or call in more lawyers, which will mean there won't be anything left.

Sassitude, it's under the IHT threshold anyway, partly because their dad died many years ago and his IHT allowance gets rolled into hers. Or something. Anyway it's all OK according to the solicitors.

OP posts:
starfishmummy · 12/09/2018 14:46

Get a lawyer. What does half her stake mean anyway?? Half of what she actually paid into the house or half of her 36% of the house which may be more or less than she paid in (due to inflation or deflation).

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:47

Good idea April.

OP posts:
SassitudeandSparkle · 12/09/2018 14:49

On what basis are you valuing his half of the 36% if not at the date of death, OP? Is that the issue?

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:49

starfishmummy, 36% of the whole thing, at the point when we sell (or pay Bob back). That was the percentage she put in at the start, paying for the deposit and some building work. Since then we've paid for everything including more renovations but didn't take account of it all in the mayhem. Also didn't want to be greedy, or nit picky.

Unlike Bob.

OP posts:
Ginmakesitallok · 12/09/2018 14:49

You can't tot up what you spent over the years. That's irrelevant unfortunately. See a solicitor.

HollowTalk · 12/09/2018 14:50

I would certainly be looking at recouping any costs involved, if he's going to behave like that.

Ginmakesitallok · 12/09/2018 14:51

And sounds like a really bad deal for you. The will should have disc bed get half of the amount she put in. You've obviously contributed much more to any current value in the house.

Ginmakesitallok · 12/09/2018 14:54

How is your house legally owned? Did mum own 36%? If not then she can't leave someone something she didn't actually own?

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:56

Sassitude, we didn't get it valued when she died. When we sell / pay him back we could get the agents to give us two valuations, one current, one estimate at date of death.

Then he can get us to bend over for whichever is the higher, plus interest, plus exchange rate compensation, plus blood.

Seems fair.

OP posts:
PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 15:03

Hi Gin, you're right. She didn't actually own it, she gave the money to DP and we own it. But we got her to write a will saying she'd given us the money on the understanding that after her death we would give half of it (plus appreciation in the value of the house) back to the estate so it could go to Bob tax free.

This is legally fine, according to our solicitor.

I actually don't think we're in a weak position legally. There's very little he can do to force us out. But we have no intention of trying to diddle him.

We want to pay him back and will do so next spring or put the house on the market before that if the we won't be able to raise the funds.

It's just astonishing that someone will watch their brother and his partner go through all of this, without having to lift a finger, and say nothing more than (effectively, and not in such bald terms) "I think you'll find you owe me".

OP posts:
UnderMajorDomoMinor · 12/09/2018 15:03

I’d get this thread moved from money to legal. I suspect bob is entitled either to half of what mil paid in when you bought or half of what mil’s % was worth at the point at which she died.

You don’t need to pay him interest or compensate for exchange rates but you do need to get him what he’s due (minus the £25k he’s already had).

It is a great shame he hasn’t acknowledged what you’ve done or been more empathetic to your situation.

Stop putting random things in writing and get a solicitor to tell you precisely what he’s owed based on the will and any other legal agreements.

Rebecca36 · 12/09/2018 15:11

It is a sad situation but the law is on your side. From what you have said it sounds as though your brother in law has spoken to someone in the legal profession who has 'advised' him. He'll probably be quite happy in the end to take what he is legally entitled to and be sorry to have been so picky about it all.

Babyroobs · 12/09/2018 15:16

I can see both sides here really. We had a vaguely similar situation over fil's house -one bil ( In the US ) wanting a quick sale, a sil who dithered for month over wanting to buy fil's house but wouldn't get her house ( she's a bit of a hoarder) sorted out to sell herself. It dragged on for 18months during which time London house prices were falling and caused problems between me and dh. Bil and SIL barely speak now and it has driven a wedge between them. I can't imagine how much more complex it must be for his inheritance to be tied up in your property but wish you all the best in getting it sorted.

timeisnotaline · 12/09/2018 15:20

I’d check with a solicitor and provide bob with the minimumyou have to no sooner than you have to.
In the meantime I’d send a nice email listing financial, practical, time and emotional input to your mothers care and say you’re very welcome. I’m sure you are aware we are the ones who made her write a will including you at all rather than just her giving everything to us, but you should know she still loved you despite your fuck all help.