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Who's being greedy here? MIL's legacy

66 replies

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 14:21

Apologies in advance for the loooong post. It's complicated. My absentee brother in law wants to penalise us for not getting him his inheritance fast enough.

DP has a brother – let’s call him Bob – who lives in the US. He's been there for 30 years, has a career and a family, and has rarely visited the UK.

In 2014, my MIL (elderly, losing her sight, no longer wanted to be responsible for crumbling home) sold her house and moved in with me, my DP and our daughter. It was a joint decision, as with progressive blindness her care needs were obviously going to increase. She lived a 2-hour drive away so popping in regularly was never going to work.

It wasn't an easy decision; DP and his mum had never got on well but there was nobody else. It was incredibly difficult getting her packed up and out of her house. She was a hoarder, and DP and I were going down every weekend for MONTHS parking our then 3 year old DD in front of DVDs, surrounded by rusty nails and weedkiller, sorting through endless drifts of paper and junk.

Anyway. We bought a property together – most of deposit paid by MIL, mortgage by me and DP.

Her money (less £20k which she kept as cash) went on the deposit and renovations. We built her a lovely annexe and continued to develop the property as a whole after her money was gone. We also the mortgage, bills maintenance etc. It was a bit of a wreck and we've done a lot to it.

We all lived here together until MIL's death in October 2017. Meanwhile she was INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT to live with. She and DD had a good relationship and for both of them it was a positive. But to her children (and me by extension) she could be a nightmare and both DP and I ended up on antidepressants. I became suicidal towards the end. It was literally that bad – and the guilt of thinking we would either have to move her back out again, or go mad, was horrendous. Her final illness was quick, and before that she seemed healthy and strong enough to go at least another decade.

Anyway. Enter Bob. From the start we made it clear both to MIL and Bob that although she was technically gifting DP all of her money (couldn’t get joint ownership at her age so the house is in my name and his only), she still rightfully owned 36% of the property as a whole (the percentage she invested at the start).

We said that after she died, we would get the house valued and we would agree to pay Bob half of whatever her 36% stake was then worth (regardless of us paying all bills and upkeep and spending on further development). We made sure all of this was in writing.

MIL became terminally ill and came home to be nursed in her own place. Over the course of the next six weeks or so we basically cared for her ourselves, with a couple of daily visits from nurses who washed her. She had a colostomy bag which I dealt with entirely except when the nurses were here.

We fitted all this around full-time work and looking after our (by this time) 6-yr-old.

Bob came over for a couple of weeks to help, and we talked a lot about how she’d been. He and DP realised that their mum had been bending the truth to both of them for decades, driving a wedge between them. They each thought the other was her favourite son. They each thought the other had said hurtful things that he really hadn’t. As a result a good decade of semi-estrangement started to heal.

So now she is gone, God rest her basically decent but bloody infuriating soul.

It’s been 11 months since she died and we’ve been on a rollercoaster trying to work out whether we will have to sell up to pay Bob back, or not. There were no timeframes in the will and we never discussed them, but back in April I lost my job and we thought, that’s it, we’re toast. We told Bob we were selling. But then we looked at the market and realised we would struggle to get back what we’d spent. And the thought of moving out of our home after everything else, and putting DD through more upheaval was horrible.

So we went back to Bob and said we wanted to try to avoid selling in a bad market. We said we were confident we could raise the money by spring 2019 to pay him back. (That will be 18mo after she died).

He didn’t really respond to this, and never gave any indication of wanting the money urgently.

Wanting to get things sorted, we wrote out a proposal for him, suggesting that in appreciation of him waiting we would get the solicitor to pay Bob all of the money from MIL’s bank accounts (about £25k) up front to help him with cash flow. (We’d take our half off what we paid him for the house.)

We also said that we would guarantee that should Brexit cause house to prices slip so far that the house is worth less than we’ve all invested in it, he’ll still get half of her original stake.

In his response Bob didn’t acknowledge this, or the offer of the cash, but simply asked us to also guarantee any slippage in exchange rates between Sterling and the US dollar between now and next spring when raise the money.

DP is enraged and their relationship is in tatters again. Bob has never acknowledged any of the work we did moving her out, any of the suffering (he knows, I told him) that we went through over the last few years, or any of the money we’ve spent developing and maintaining the property that he has a share in.

To not even mention that, but to ask for even more???

His response (very much on the high horse) is to say that not insisting we sell last April (6 months after MIL died) was his way of acknowledging everything we have done, and that he feels perfectly justified in asking us to underwrite the UK economy in return for the delay.

He’s acting as though DP has borrowed money from him. I suppose technically you could argue he has. But morally? Legally?

If you’ve made it to the end of this post, thank you! Please let me know what you think of this mess.

OP posts:
pallisers · 12/09/2018 15:28

get a solicitor to tell you precisely what he’s owed based on the will and any other legal agreements.

Do this. The money you pay a solicitor for a consultation will be well worth it. I am the sibling who was in the US (did a lot more than Bob though and my mother needed a lot less help) and I wouldn't have dreamed of pressurising my sibling - I was damned grateful that they had been the first line of support for my mother. His attitude sucks and as a result I would not be bending over backwards to give him anything he isn't strictly entitled to.

Your mil's will is odd on the face of it. She is giving a stake in a house she doesn't own to her son. Did you and dh sign an agreement with her about the deposit? Why on earth are you giving bob an appreciation in value in her stake in the house when the appreciation is down to YOUR investment of time/money.

PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 15:29

Thanks everyone. Helpful advice.

OP posts:
PieceofKate · 12/09/2018 15:34

Thank you timeisnotaline, we've actually done more or less excatly that!

Pallisers, thank you so much. That's what DP can't understand - that he's never expressed any gratitude. He reckons letting us delay while still asking us to guarantee exchange rates counts as showing his consideration.

Will talk to DP about taking your advice and that of many other posters to get onto a solicitor about what we actually owe, pronto.

OP posts:
Winebottle · 12/09/2018 21:40

You are being greedy. You owe him the money.

You agreed with MIL that she was 36% beneficial owner of the house and he has inherited 18% as beneficial owner.

It's his money and he has a right to it. You don't get to go back on the agreement you made with MIL because she was difficult or you maintained your own house.

You either need to sell the house or give him the money. If you are asking him to act as an interest free lender on the 18% of the house until next year, why shouldn't you guarantee he will not end up with less? That is perfectly reasonable. You should be paying interest as well.

You may be able to wriggle out of it with a lawyer but you could end up getting hit with fees. It's best to just communicate with Bob and sort out a deal you can both agree to.

NewUserNameTime · 12/09/2018 21:56

Was the written agreement done legally or informally written by you & DH?

NewUserNameTime · 12/09/2018 21:59

^ ignore my phone just refreshed so additional posts loaded

Failingat40 · 12/09/2018 22:03

I think Bob is being rather selfish and greedy tbh. He's had his life unaffected by his mother's difficulties in her final years, done none of the care or had any responsibility for any arrangements, not had to uproot his family to accommodate her care needs yet is sticking his hand out for her cash.

I think you've been massively accommodating so far but tbh you won't get any thanks for it, a strained relationship between the brothers that's lasted 30 years isn't going to change now.

I'd see a shit hot lawyer and see if things can be swung more in your favour since your the ones who have done all the work.

NicoAndTheNiners · 12/09/2018 22:08

I think Bob is being very, very unreasonable.

I was nearly in your situation. Elderly dad was increasingly frail and we considered building an annexe at ours so he could live here. Dad would have had to finance the extension (and had the cash). I spoke to my brother and said I was prepared to do it, look after dad, etc but that I could not put myself in a position that when dad died that anybody felt I owed my brother money. Obviously I would be left with a bigger, more valuable house. My brother said he didn’t care find I “gained” financially out of it.....the fact that I was prepared to care for dad as long as I could was all my brother cared about (in a good way).

As it turns out my dad found someone to marry and moved in with her which solved all our problems! Grin

I do think Bob could show more consideration for what you did. And I think he’s being quite awful to be honest making you sell your home. I think your mil has put you in a bad position and shouldn’t have left him half of the 36% in the will knowing you might have to sell.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 12/09/2018 22:12

He’s behaving badly morally speaking by if the Will is valid as you say then you do need to get moving unfortunately. If he was getting a legacy then you’d have a year to pay it before starting to pay interest. As it’s not a legacy there isn’t a hard and fast timescale but very few beneficiaries would be happy with 18 months before starting marketing a property, and you absolutely don’t want him applying to have you removed as executors as the costs of that could be ridiculous.

As I understand the history, your MIL did own a share of the property so that isn’t a problem with the Will. It will have been beneficial ownership not legal but that isn’t relevant for probate purposes.

7salmonswimming · 12/09/2018 22:13

There was no timeframe in the will for selling up and giving Bob his share? Well, that’s Bob’s problem. The will could easily have said “when Kate and her DP sell the house, Bob shall receive half of 36% of the amount realised by the sale net of taxes and costs”. It could have said “within 12 months of my passing Kate and her DP shall give to Bob half of 36% of the sun realised by the sale of the house net of taxes and costs, or an amount equally thereto”. But it didn’t. It’s left open. I reckon a lawyer would likely argue (although perhaps not correctly) that there’s an obligation on you to be reasonable. But then you’d have a dispute over what’s a reasonable period of time.

Either way, Bob doesn’t have a leg to stand on demanding that you make good for any exchange rate discrepancies (wow! He’s the one who moved away from his inheritance!). He’s looking at this as though it’s a contract. You’re looking at this as though it’s a family issue.

Having said alllllll of that, I do think your DP needs to think about what he cares about most: his relationship with his brother or a few thousand pounds (don’t know how many, assuming the question is the same even if we’re talkkng hundreds of thousands). Because that’s really the bottom line, irrespective of rights and wrongs.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 12/09/2018 22:16

There doesn’t need to be a timeframe for sale. If there is then it’s to delay a sale usually while adult children move out etc.

Personal representatives have a duty to administer the estate in a timely manner and to act even handedly between the beneficiaries. Obviously they have a ton of other duties but those are your problems. Delaying the sale breaches both because you’re living there rent free and Bob’s inheritance is delayed.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 12/09/2018 22:22

As far as the costs of renovation etc go, that would come down to whether you have an agreement about those either adjusting the beneficial share or being treated as a loan. In the absence of either they wouldn’t be recoverable. Mortgage payments were your way of purchasing your share so they won’t be relevant, and you can’t recover care costs if you didn’t agree that initially with MIL. But if you paid things for her and are out of pocket, which you may well find you did and add up to a lot more than you think, those can be treated as liabilities and recovered.

SeaToSki · 12/09/2018 22:27

Does the will say that she has a 36% interest in the house and that this is to be split between the 2 brothers, OR does the will say that MIL put x pounds into the house and that this (plus its proportional increase in value relative to the house's increase in value) is to be split between the brothers.
If its scenario one then you owe a lot more than scenario two. Scenario one has DB benefiting from all the extra money you have put into the house to increase its value. Scenario two is (in my opinion) the fairer calculation and is the original investment your MIL made plus its appreciation while invested in real estate (your house)

I do think the value of the house should be set at when MIL died. Asking you to buffer any exchange rate changes is unacceptable and is a risk he knew he was going to take as he knew her assets were in pounds. If he wants to wait for a more favorable exchange rate, he can keep the bequest in pounds until he wants to exchange for dollars like anyone else.
If the will doesnt specify how fast the bequest needed to be made, then you will have to talk to a solicitor about what to do, but in the circumstances, I wouldnt be hurrying to do anything you didnt have to do (he didnt hurry to give you any help with nursing MIL after all)

NicoAndTheNiners · 12/09/2018 22:30

But legally she doesn’t have a 36% interest in the house, it’s not in her name? So does it matter what the will says? Was there a contract between her and dh saying she had a 36% stake in the house? Yes you need legal advice but from my extensive knowledge of Judge Rinder if she didn’t get dh to sign a contract saying this then she had no claim and therefore nothing to leave in the will.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 12/09/2018 22:34

But legally she doesn’t have a 36% interest in the house, it’s not in her name?

Yes she does. She has a beneficial share of 36%. Legal ownership isn’t relevant here, and she couldn’t have a contract either. She could have had a declaration of trust to set out how the cost of renovations etc would be reflected, but we don’t know about that yet.

Even Judge Rinder will acknowledge beneficial ownership to be a thing I’m afraid.

pallisers · 12/09/2018 22:34

SeatoSki, my understanding is neither of those scenarios matter if the only legal document saying anything about the interest in the house is the will. The will can't create an interest in the property - it can only bequeath such interest as MIL had. If there is no legal document setting up this legal interest, then Bob is relying on the good intent of the OP and her husband - or suing to declare his interest. if there is a legal document then someone needs to look at that to see what it says about interests in the property and then deal with that.

The currency fluctuations etc are nothing to do with the OP - that is Bob's problem.

I have absolutely no sympathy for Bob. You and your dh did the heavy-lifting for a difficult woman in the most difficult years and he should be a lot more grateful and understanding. Next time he whines tell him that you are stuck in this situation with the house because you had to have HIS mother living with you and your children while you cared for her and cleaned her colostomy bag - so back the fuck off.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 12/09/2018 22:35

Beneficial ownership doesn’t need to be established by deed though, and everyone agrees on what share she had. The Will is also good evidence of this unfortunately.

7salmonswimming · 12/09/2018 22:38

But the MIL’s estate doesn’t include a share of the house. She didn’t own any part of the house. She left a will saying that she would give each son half of 36% of the value of the house (irrespective of her contribution to it). The OP and her DP could raise a loan for that amount. It’s their house, they own it. Of course they can live there rent free.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 12/09/2018 22:40

It did include a 36% share of the house though. Iegal ownership isn’t the point as the OP has explained that the MIL’s name was only left off the title register because of mortgage reasons. She has acknowledged to Bob in writing that MIL owned that share and MIL provided evidence in this Will.

If as you say MIL didn’t own any of the property then how is it being covered by her IHT allowances? It can’t work both ways.

7salmonswimming · 12/09/2018 22:41

No she doesn’t have a beneficial interest of 36%. That’s what OP, DP and MIL agreed would be the amount she could leave to her sons. Her beneficial interest is equal to her contribution, which it sounds was less than 36%. She didn’t bequeath her beneficial interest. She bequeathed 36% equally.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 12/09/2018 22:44

Of course she does. She contributed it to the purchase price and they created a beneficial tenancy in common. Evidenced by the OP herself and by the MIL’s Will and doubtless tons of attendance notes

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 12/09/2018 22:46

she still rightfully owned 36% of the property as a whole (the percentage she invested at the start)

Here you are. No agreement between the brothers after the fact. 36% at the start, 36% at date of death and 36% now.

Beesandfrogsandfleas · 12/09/2018 22:58

I think you were reasonable to start with but not any more. You cannot charge a penny for nursing! The renovations presumably benefit you and increase the value of your home. This was all a bad move really, why would anyone expect to wait so long for an inheritance? he is probably having people near him saying he’ll never see it and being more demanding because of this. The emotional side of your sacrifice in caring for your mil needs to be separated from the financial side of the inheritance, it really does.

7salmonswimming · 12/09/2018 23:04

They’ve renovated and extended, they also feel the market has dipped. How are you sure her contribution of 36% at the time of purchase equals 36% of the value now? How do you k ow how the bequest is phrased, in the absence of the document itself? I don’t know either!

I don’t think the will was well drafted. This issue shouldn’t have ever arisen.

Haireverywhere · 12/09/2018 23:10

I think you should see a solicitor to ensure a fair outcome but charging for nursing seems like you'd only be doing that because you're angry.