MLM Bot Watch 21 - chat about Utah based tragicomic cultastic racketeering scamalangadingdongs like Forever Living, Ariix, Herbalife, Younique, Juiceplus etc etc etc

[Twunk]

Links etc to follow!

Welcome all to the new thread

Why do you think people have to get up at 5am, Norbert? Keep 'em tired and don't give them a chance to actually think. I doubt inculcees do much more than fall onto their beds of a night.

'twas ever thus.

It's all got to massively implode soon surely?

The rebellion of the brain-washed as they revolt , zombie style, against the likes of Rexy.

Who can tell - in eg the UK and US, anyway. My own - and very personal - view is that the prominent MLMs will aim to keep things just about 'ticking over' in those markets but shift their main focus to the 'less developed markets' where expansion might prove easier for them.

Still - if even a few people are alerted to the dangers and leave? (Or don't go in in the first place.) Or regulators start to sit up and take notice?

My aim is to prevent this spreading to other countries. I am attempting to write an article based on the demographics here which a certain optical person will make more available. I can't seem to upload my draft introduction as it's not an image but a Word document so I'll try to paste it here. Comments are welcome.

The perfect market?
An investigation into MLMs in the Middle East

I encountered the world of MLMs quite by chance. I had nothing to do and limited internet access when I stumbled upon a chat board thread where the poster was concerned for a friend who had suddenly started to flood her Facebook feed with “inspirational” quotes and was raving about her new business opportunity.

I then, having far too much time on my hands, started to read more and more.
Now much of this related to the USA (where the whole thing began) and the UK but it got me to wondering whether it had infiltrated into where I live.

For anyone who has not lived in the Middle East it is a melting pot. At one end of the spectrum you have the locals who often have huge amounts of money at their disposal, then you have lots of bored (and often depressed and homesick) expatriate housewives who moved to further their husband’s career.

You will also find a large amount of expatriates coming from Asia where there is a cultural encouragement to have your own business on the side. Finally you get to the incredibly low paid (think $140 a month) workers who are brought in to do jobs such as cleaning, nannying, gardening etc. but who are desperate to earn a little more to send back home (where they are often supporting whole families).

My first endeavours into looking into it showed that the “usual” suspects are certainly out here. Certainly Amway, Forever Living and Juice Plus are and Forever Living has three “stores” in Dubai alone. I will come back to why they are “stores” later

C.A.M

Norbert I saw that gloaty post too... I must admit, the gloating from that side has almost reached epic proportions of late, juxtaposed neatly with the #mesohumble posts from the other side... Its all frankly nauseating. The blinkers are well and truly on there, they dont give a shiit what happens to the people beneath them, provided those big cheques and fanfares keep appearing! The thing that fucks me off the most, is this notion... The one where they make out they are helping people?? Laughable!!! They are helping people to line their own pockets and add zeros to the big cheques. They Bully their managers and wampum minions, intimidate them, troll them, humiliate them, do whatever it takes to keep those cheques rolling in. Then stand on a big stage flashing the cash, look! You can be just like me! Knowing full well that the minions wont, but they will again next year, with a bigger cheque at the expense of the minions.!
They sleep at night, because they surround themselves with yes men and arse kissers, adoring fans who think they are just amaaaazing and idolise them in the way that almost always happens in the higher eschalons of cults. They sleep at night, because they have subscribed to their own bullshit, and of course they have... You cannot convince others of your lie unless you have truly convinced yourself. And so the horrible cycle continues.
The way they seek to silence the "haters" is totally reminiscent of a political dictatorship and yes bots, I cam see you all now, laughing over your lattes over this ridiculous suggestion. But take a good hard look at yourself whilst you cackle away at that suggestion. You are hurting, repressing and ruining people and the more you act like you all dont care, the more arrogant you look and the more disgusted the general public are with you. Your houses are built of sand, they will fall and you will have to dig even deeper into the dark murky depths of morality, looking for exceptionally vulnerable people in under developed markets (you know, the ones whose kids you were cuddling up to for your pr #humblebrags ) to keep on delivering your big cheques.

I hope you are all proud of yourself, I hope those shoes, range rovers, fairytale homes, business class flights, champagne and cleaners are worth the devastation they cause to 99% of those you supposedly "help".

BTW Cam excellent post l!

See humble, this is where we get a bot saying "no one held a gun to their heads, it was their choice" etc.

Was it?

Did your scripted psychological tricks have anything to do with it?

All that profiling. Hot buttons. Personality reviews. Targeted prospecting deliberately designed to ENTRAP (remember that sizzle where they actually used this word!)

For what? 2CC.

So you do this shit to your friends and family for about 40 quid. And then you wonder why people aren't engaging with you anymore!

Well thats the thing isnt it noyouarenot?

Truly free 'choices' are only made when presented with ALL the facts, and one is not being manipulated by a carefully scripted set of emotional triggers and false statements of achievable wealth and lifestyle.

The now infamous, crying child, "dont go to work mummy" picture is a classic example of the sort of emotional tricks used to lure people in... From there, the lies mount up, the dream is set (dream boards for example) and the old "whats the worst that can happen?" Part sets in... Well, just buy the business box/starter pack... At least if you dont want to sell anything afterwards then you have a load of overpriced wampum our lovely products to keep for yourself... And to quote Cozie, its then a case of following the money (cc's/points from that purchase) all the way up the chain to that giant cheque, which is then paraded around to lure those who have bought the products that no one wants into thinking they can do that too. There starts the recruiting chain again, and where does that recruiting money flow? Yes... Thats right, back up to the giant cheques at the top
Of the pyramid, to further the lifestyles of a handful and perpetuate the "look
At me, this could be you!" Myth.

The most distasteful example I have seen of late, is the endless photos that keep coming of the managers and minions holding the uberbots big cheques as some sort of motivation! Its a very clever trick, they do not realise they are being manipulated, but everyone else on the outside can see it for what it is.

Sorry this might be already covered somewhere but it there a breakdown of how you make money with FL? What's the commission on sales and the recruits sales? When I Google I can't see anything except glowing reviews.

A friend I new a few years back started FL and I'm pretty sure everyone joins in the same model. She's not driving a BMW but I have been told she's just a seller, she isn't growing the business. But that how you make money isn't it? Recruiting people? There's one business model surely?

Does anyone know how much NLP training has been undertaken by the uberbots? I suspect a fair bit! It is important to bear in mind just how strong an effect Neuro Linguistic Programming can have on recipients, lets not forget the things Derren Brown has been able to convince people to do or think they have done, without "holding a gun to their head" by using NLP.

We see NLP everywhere, in politics, charity fundraising, therapeutic settings, Life coaching, religion etc...

NLP can be a useful and helpful technique in and of itself, and is not always a sinister method, especially if the recipient knows it is being used and why, however when in the wrong hands and used purely for financial gain, it is a highly effective and devastating tactic.

This brings us to 'mindset' training which is usually facilitated through the practice of NLP. The problem with convincing people they must change their 'mindset' is, that it is such a generic point. What are you changing your mindset to? And did you really decide that you wanted to? Or has someone else made you think you should?
Yes, if you have a phobia for example, then adjusting your mindset and correctly administered NLP techniques will help you to learn to possibly overcome it, but if your mindset is being adjusted to effectively line the pockets of others and be manipulated into believing that wampum will make all your worldly dreams come true, then yes, psychologically you have in effect had a gun held to your head and fallen victim to a financial cult.

The difference here is, these mlm coaches/mindset trainers have cleverly taught you how to hold the gun to your own head and you never even noticed them doing it.

MrsHumblePants, your post prompted me to look up the definition of 'mindset'. I came across the idea that people can sometimes be led to alter their mindsets when they are in a group and this can lead to 'groupthink'. Here is a bit of reading about 'groupthink'.

What is Groupthink?

Groupthink, a term coined by social psychologist Irving Janis (1972), occurs when a group makes faulty decisions because group pressures lead to a deterioration of “mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment” (p. 9). Groups affected by groupthink ignore alternatives and tend to take irrational actions that dehumanize other groups. A group is especially vulnerable to groupthink when its members are similar in background, when the group is insulated from outside opinions, and when there are no clear rules for decision making.

References (also see annotated bibliography of books, articles and websites below)

Janis, Irving L. (1972). Victims of Groupthink. New York: Houghton Mifflin.
Janis, Irving L. (1982). Groupthink: Psychological Studies of Policy Decisions and Fiascoes. Second Edition. New York: Houghton Mifflin.

Symptoms of Groupthink

Janis has documented eight symptoms of groupthink:

1. Illusion of invulnerability –Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.
2. Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.
3. Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.
4. Stereotyped views of out-groups – Negative views of “enemy” make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.
5. Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group’s views.

6.Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed. 7.Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.

1. Self-appointed ‘mindguards’ – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group’s cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.

When the above symptoms exist in a group that is trying to make a decision, there is a reasonable chance that groupthink will happen, although it is not necessarily so. Groupthink occurs when groups are highly cohesive and when they are under considerable pressure to make a quality decision. When pressures for unanimity seem overwhelming, members are less motivated to realistically appraise the alternative courses of action available to them. These group pressures lead to carelessness and irrational thinking since groups experiencing groupthink fail to consider all alternatives and seek to maintain unanimity. Decisions shaped by groupthink have low probability of achieving successful outcomes.

Great posts mrsh and toobusy absolutely right.

Superb article, thank you toobusy,

Yes, the theory of Groupthink is particularly relevant here, the hoopla and ceremony involved in these global rallies, recognition days, group training sessions etc only serves to further enhance the groupthink theory IMHO.

It is a seemingly layered process isnt it?

*Prospect

• Set emotional triggers

*Deploy persuasive NLP techniques to encourage new mindset.

• Concept of needing new mindset has been cemented in recipient, stage intial access to lower group hierarchies

Engage groupthink techniques at success days by creating mass hysteria , and expose the recipient to the "superstar/celeb" bots further up the hierarchy as part of the goal setting, reward based manipulation scheme. (Look you can be like me)

*New mindset established, recipient must be encouraged to not slip away, ie; dial up the pressure, bully, humiliate, punish and isolate if they dont follow the 'rules' and the 'training' . (Law of attraction positive vs negative mindset etc)

*total indoctrination has now been established! It is all the recipients fault if they fail and no one put a gun to their head did they?

*repeat process over and over until giant cheque.

Anyone see any parrallels with abusive relationships? And erm.... Cults? 😉

Totally agree Mrshumblepants

Very eloquently put

2boys the only way your upline will help you is if you're building your business. Some people retail but you are unlikely to earn much and definitely would not achieve any of the famed incentives. We have seen before in a video from someone who retailed high amounts through sheer hard work that they failed quickly as it couldn't be duplicated. It just wasn't how the business (network marketing) was designed and her entire team dropped out.

So while there are those who simply sell the products, they're not really in the game so to speak. You can read the business plan online. It is about building a team and hitting your monthly target (4CC).

Yes apologies 2boys I didnt address you because I wasnt entirely sure what your question was... Welcome to the threads! 😊

Interestingly on a slightly different tangent, the #botswhodothprotest have been conspicuously absent from here as late! Whats changed? anyone else a tad suspicious? 🤔🤔

The 'holding a gun to your own head' comment has just really struck a chord with me.
I found myself apologising for my mere existence sometimes.
I'm sorry I'm having a bad day. I'm sorry I can't be cheerful. I'm sorry I didn't reply to you quickly enough. I'm sorry I didn't reply at 2am. I'm sorry I've felt like crying this whole week. I'm sorry I need to spend time with my partner. I'm sorry I haven't done my 4cc yet. I'm sorry I can't make training I'm in hospital.

Why was I saying sorry so much when I was a Business Owner?
I hate myself knowing that I, in turn made my team feel like that. I was void of emotion in the end, anything they said I was programmed into thinking 'they're making excuses, they don't want it like you do'
Or maybe, they're having a really bad day and maybe need someone to just say, it will be ok. You know, given them the support we promised them.

Delurker I think everything you said there will really ring true with a lot of people who read the thread. People really do struggle with the business and I think that this is one of the reasons why it makes people feel like they're failing when it in reality the model that is failing them.

However I have just read there's a new approach to this, from high up.

If you are going in with a "I'll try it out and see what happened attitude" and are only giving it a year you SHOULD NOT JOIN.

And don't then go on to discuss then negatives as you're "stealing people's dreams".

So yes, one person out of a million could make big bucks. But what about the other 999,999? Well they should stay quiet.

Delurker the fact that you hate yourself is very sad and shows that you clearly have a long way to go before you recover from all this... Remember, you were assimilated and taught to replicate the very manipulation techniques that hooked you in, the very same techniques that you did not realise were manipulating YOU. You believed in the programme because you were very badly misled, and you were taught to chase an unreachable dream. You are now probably being ostracised and called out publicly as a "dreamstealer" but you should disregard this as a common tactic of cult leaders in the upper hierarchies and a desperate attempt by them to cover up the "negativity" that could breed within the remaining group and reduce the amounts on those big cheques (cozie says follow the money).

Always question how those few (and it is really only a few when you do the maths) at the top really got there....

This is not your fault.

You are now in a position to be able to support those whom you wished you had on these threads, this will always be a safe place for them to come, regardless of what the trolls say and threaten.

Actually, Im going to throw the "ants legs" concept back at them here.

Imagine an ant broken down by its component body parts on a pie chart.

What do you see?

Whenever a bot is questioned on their methods they say that they're not like that, they dislike bad reps as much as we all do etc. But how did they get there? How did they sell overpriced health and wellness products without making any claims? How did they manage to persuade people to join without using the profiling techniques they were told to, such as playing on the persons weakness, using hot buttons and making them feel it was their only choice of a better life?

Why is it that the only way to achieve your dreams in life is by selling toiletries and supplements and convincing others to do the same?

Who even dreams of selling this stuff?

Why is it that people are classed as GUPTRs (generally unsuccessful people talking rubbish) - a name made up by a top UW bot who is also friends with top FL bots - if they don't agree with this deceptive and exploitative plan?

I'm not generally unsuccessful - it's specific.

CAM good intro to your piece. There are so many places you can go with this - I know we are talking diverse countries but what is the regulatory environment like where you are?

Oh and the piece needs more kittens