MLM Bot Watch 17- chat about Utah based tragicomic cultastic racketeering scamalangadingdongs like Forever Living, Ariix, Herbalife, Younique, Juiceplus etc etc etc

[Toobusytowee]

A brief history of the threads so far-

A few people were bemused at their friends' strange personality changes when they joined MLMs.
Eyespying told us they were tragicomic, thought stopping cultic racketeers.
We told him to go away, he was clearly obsessed, and can he go to his own serious thread?
We delved a bit deeper into the issues.
Eyes started creeping back. We told him he was too serious.
We became more horrified at the information being turned up and were sharing links.
Eyes told us aboutMerchants of Deception.
Timeless Vie was set up as a parody about MLMs.[[www.facebook.com/timelessvie
Facebook,]] Twitter, blog, Instagram and YouTube were all used.
People started coming forward, telling of their experiences in MLMs.
We became more horrified.
Bot Watch started on Facebook where links were put up of interest to do with MLMs.
Botwatchblog started and produced factual analysis of the discussions from MN.
MLM members (bots) waded in saying it was all ok. You can earn great money. You just have to work 19 hours a day and not worry about morals.
Bots complained about their names being used. Their lawyers complained to MNHQ so that MN now do not allow us to use bots' names or show screengrabs of their writings even if it is in the public domain.
Blogs and FB posts increased, with the increasing amount of facts and whistleblowers coming forward.
FL lawyer tried to get TV YouTube video banned.
Bots claimed we were bullying them because we were asking them questions they couldn't answer. we were called middle aged women and accused of being drug dealers.
It got a bit nasty so we ate some cheese for a bit and they went away.
Health claims from FL bots now reducing dramatically as a result of pestering from all of us.
We stopped telling Eyes he was too serious. We all started thinking in his language and realised he was right.
Eyes turned out to be very funny and entertained us all.
Sunday Times article produced exposing FL. With a little help from people here.
Lawyers still persisting in trying to ban TV's videos.

Some links of interest-
A factsheet aimed at people considering joining an MLM or who have just done so, to warn them of some facts. tinyurl.com/ha6sgxw

A film of herbalife victims describing what it is like in their MLM-

A film on how to spot a pyramid scheme-

A comedy review of an MLM product- www.youtu.be/4yr_etbfZtQ

xenu that MK site is fab, thanks for posting link . It occured to me that all we need to do is remove the words/references to "MK" and insert [any MLM company] and the story is the same .

Thank you to everyone who has posted about how to report false claims to the relevent authorities and for the various links that have been given.

What has been achieved by these threads should not be underestimated and while i am disapointed at the banning of Eyes and think his efforts will be missed hugely, these threads have enough posters who are also making a huge impact with what they are doing.

With regards to other methods of complaint, would it be worth writing to MPs regarding MLMs? Given that Forever Living have the Investors In People 'status'?

The investors in people thing is only for their direct employees - the ones working for their head office. Claiming this as a reason to sign up with them is disingenuous at best

Twunk It is disingenuous. Perhaps a letter to IIP saying that their status is being abused in this way to sucker in recruits would put a stop to that.

Would a

Yes that's a good idea, we could send in screenshots of recruits who have used the IIP status to demonstrate that FL "must" be above board

leanne thank you for the clarification.

Eyespying said that he's invited various MLM cults to sue him, knowing that they wouldn't dare.

I suppose telling the truth causes a lot of damage to companies which wouldn't know what the truth was if it jumped up and bit their fat backsides.

I've just had a vision of a pack of FL lawyers heading to court wheeling their tacky yellow cases behind them!😂😂

BS love it! 😂😂😂

I wrote to my MP a few months ago about MLMs and I asked what the government were doing about them. I got passed to a minister who replied that MLMs are legal and that some are good. E.g. Avon! I was told what to do if I suspected a pyramid scheme.

I didn't fully appreciate the problem at the time and I think I need to write a new letter to him. If someone drafts a good letter, maybe they could share it here so we can model our own letters on it.

toobusy what do you do if you suspect a pyramid scheme? Would the scheme need to defend itself by producing information (such as external vs internal sales?)

The abuse of the IIP accreditation has always got on my tits. Unfortunately the people who use it to lure others in truly believe the hype. I shall be reporting this abuse - don't know why I haven't yet. Sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees.

Am very disappointed about the banning of Eyes, whose posts were great at cutting through the crap and getting to the point... which is that, besides a very small select few, no-one gets rich, and most lose money.

Anyway, regarding MPs, I seem to remember Eyes linked to an EU report (written maybe 15 years ago) regarding MLMs. This report seemed to not fully appreciate their extend or scope. Perhaps we need an updated business report that could be sent out simultaneously to all MPs, to get the matter discussed.

I've just dug out my letter from Nick Boles (minister of state for skills) where he advises me on MLMs. I'd put a copy of the letter here but he keeps referring to me by name.

He mentions part XI of the Fair Trading Act. 1973 (as amended by the Trading Schemes Act 1996) and the Trading Schemes Regulations 1997.

He says "The law also makes it a criminal offence to run a relevant scheme which does not comply with certain criteria set out in the 1997 Regulations".

Maybe we need to have a look at what these regulations are in detail?

He mentions that. "The law does make it a criminal offence to persuade someone to make a payment to a scheme by promising benefits from getting other people to join a trading scheme (Fair Trading Act 1973 section 120 (3)). This does not make recruitment rewards unlawful".

I wonder how the law feels when people make a payment to join a scheme and are promised benefits and then later they find they have to recruit to get this? There is SO much evidence out there of people on You Tube and in training slides/Facebook satin that to earn any money you have to recruit. It seems the law is being broken, but for this delay.

Can someone explain about the job seekers allowance ad? I think that MLMers like to encourage people to 'buy their business' using benefits. How does this work and then maybe we could write to DWP/HMRC to try to get that disallowed? And with Universal Credit, doesn't being self employed mean you are deemed to have a certain income for benefits purposes? So it would be really disadvantageous for anyone out of work to do an MLM?

Very interesting toobusy. I suppose the next question is who would investigate/prosecute? Trading standards???

FLhahaha , the letter advises contacting the Citizens Advice consumer helpline on 03454 04 05 06 (https:/www.adviceguide.org.uk/) if you suspect a pyramid scheme. They will pass on details of complaints to trading standards services where appropriate.

Bear in mind that Minister's letters would almost always be drafted by civil servants. They rarely indicate any political will.

FLhahaha I looked into the DWP allowance thing and found that you have to have your JSA stopped and go onto the new business grant for a few months and then it stops. You would be left with no JSA and a pile of wampum and no friends. However, your business idea has to be assessed by a business expert before you are put on the scheme. I really hope an expert would see through these schemes and not allow it.
Do you think we could find out? Maybe we need to ask some questions of the DWP?

Yes the DWP may be able to answer a Freedom of Information request. Then we would know which way to go. If they have never awarded a new business grant for such a business we could advertise that, and if they have we could try to persuade them not to! :)

Anyone familiar with FoI? Leanne? Is it better to make one FoI request for each MLM we are asking about, or one for the whole lot?

Occasional delurker here

Toobusy and FLhahaha I was once given the FL hard sell by a former colleague. We had both left where we worked at a similar time. In the following few months, we used to meet now and again for a coffee. I remember her saying before she started FL that she was desperate to do ANYTHING whether it made decent money or not, because she could then resume claiming tax credits.

That's my roundabout way of saying that the loss of JSA might not affect a lot of people, especially parents because it would probably be more than offset by the gaining of tax credits.

I also think rather cynically that the government is not adverse to MLMs because they probably keep unemployment statistics lower than they otherwise would be. never mind that the majority of bots don't make an income

Thank you. I don't know much about tax credits - is it that you have to show that you work a certain number of hours per week? How do you show that?

Tax credits is like a top up for people not earning enough. The amount ou get depends on how many hours you work and how much you earn.

I think Dairyinglass has a point there about unemployment statistics. I wonder how many people are 100% dependent on Tax Credits because they are in an MLM and not earning money from it? All those people spending their tax credits on wampum and not caring that it is going to fat cat millionaires because it means they get money to pay the bills and put food in their table (through tax credits). And unlike JSA, they don't have to search for a job or go to meetings. They fill in one form and renew every year.

stopfaffing xenu that MK site is fab, thanks for posting link smile. It occured to me that all we need to do is remove the words/references to "MK" and insert [any MLM company] and the story is the same"
Indeed! FL is Amway but aimed at women. The same arguments, the same setup, the same expensve seminars, the same blame-the-victim. As eyes pointed out, its essentially the same since Nutrilite with different wampum and (sometime) different targets.

wrt MPs, its never a bad idea to contact yours, or trading standards. But what we really need is someone who was involved, suffered, and wants to complain. Its hard for a 3rdparty and, as I've said (emptying whole rooms of people in the process :)) anyone official attending a seminar would just see lots of enthused and "happy" people...

Re Working Tax Credit

I'm self employed and in receipt of tax credits. This was sent to me by the Tax Credit Office in Feb 2016.

*Eligibility
To be eligible for Working Tax Credit you should be getting paid, or expect to get paid, for the self-employed work you do in your trade, profession or vocation.
Your self-employment now needs to be:
-done on a commercial basis, with a view to making a profit
-done regularly and in an organised way
For example, you may not qualify if you don't
-make a profit, or plan to make a profit
-have good business records
-work regularly
-follow any regulations for your trade, profession or vocation**

Basically I work whenever I can (at least 30 hours), keep a shit tonne of records, photos, emails, etc, and do my utmost to make a profit! I will be off credits after my next self-assessment.
I have long believed TPTB legitimise MLMs because participants can potentially move from the unemployed to self-employed lists, which like the Bank of England base rate is headline making.

If MLMs are actively encouraging participants to believe they are self employed and apply for Tax Credits then they are joining a long line of companies, mostly non-domestic, who rely on the UK tax payer to prop up their profits.