'FL / MLM' Thread 3

[Eyespying]

Continuing the valuable discussion of 'Forever Living' and other 'MLM/commercial' cults.

Thank you for your post rayofhope, it seems pretty rare than anyone involved ever comes forward to give their truthful experience and the MLMs benefit from the silence.
I have also been reading a lot recently about MLMs since a friend has been sucked in far, far deeper than I thought they could and I expect they are loosing serious money. Eyespy, other posts on here and the book ‘Merchants of Deception’ has helped me understand how this is possible and how the MLMs work both financially and psychologically.
I think, with you having been involved, you have a better position from which to warn people off MLMs. I have heard many times ‘oh but you don’t understand the system because you’ve never been part of it’ whereas you HAVE that experience. So please don’t be embarrassed – share your experience with the knowledge that it was all, deliberately, heavily stacked against you from Day 1.

xenu1- Thanks for the thumbs up. It's always very gratifying when my work is read, fully-understood and appreciated.

As you are no doubt aware, all I ever do, is invite individuals to think, because cults always try to stop individuals from thinking

I don't know if you have been following the latest activity on Seeking Alpha, but certain (far-from intellectually-rigorous) authors are only now beginning to describe how parts of 'MLM income opportunity' cultic racketeering functions, and only in the case of 'Herbalife.'

A the risk of sounding bitter, some of us were at a far higher level of understanding than this, decades ago.

Yet entire SA articles are still being devoted to the most-elementary aspects of 'MLM income opportunity' cultic racketeering, but notice how the authors use thoughtless inaccurate (and, therefore, effectively-meaningless) terms, like 'ultimate users,' and repeat thought-stopping 'MLM' jargon, like 'distributors.'

seekingalpha.com/article/3630816-herbalife-connecting-the-dots

Summary

- Herbalife’s program grants rewards that are based on the suggested retail price of the amount ordered from Herbalife, rather than based on actual sales to ultimate users.

- Herbalife’s compensation plan incentivizes distributors to seek those rewards.

- Herbalife’s anti-inventory-loading safeguards are neither effective nor enforced.

- The combination of the above three bullet points without sufficient retail sales will inevitably generate a pyramid scheme.

rayofhope- Thank-you for your brave and truthful comment.

Brysonette is correct, this makes you one of the very rare, and valuable, ex-'MLM' adherents to come forward.

I for one, offer you my respect.

What you are actually describing in your comment, is how your critical, and evaluative, faculties gradually began to function again as you found more and more independent information (despite the determined efforts of your 'FLP' handlers to cut you off from external reality).

Under no circumstances should you feel embarrassed, or ashamed, for falling for the 'FLP/MLM' Utopian fairy story. On the contrary, you should feel proud of yourself for thinking your way out of it and trying to warn others.

A beneficial excercize for you now, would be to try to write a frank description of your experience in 'FLP,' but not using any of the thought-stopping 'MLM / Negative vs Positive' jargon terms with which you have been bombarded for the last several years.

In order to control any individual's thinking, all you need to do, is ritualise his/her means of thought.

Thus, in cults like 'FLP', control of adherents' thinking and bahaviour is achieved simply by cutting them off from all external sources of information, whilst constantly repeating certain key-words and images.

The ritualisation of thinking has been used for centuries to control, and enslave, humans. Today, even though most humans consider themselves to be far too sophisticated to be duped, cults continues to funtion, because the full explanation of how they function is, by its very nature, a threat to human self-esteem and our related psychological function.

'The most powerful weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.'

I hope this part-explanation helps you to understand more-fully what has been inflicted on you (without your fully-informed consent).

Since I stepped away my husband has noticed a difference in me (he was always supportive of me working in Forever) but he says I'm smiling more and seem much happier since I stepped away. He is so supportive of me and says not to worry about the bit of debt on my credit card. We'll get it paid soon and that all he wants is for me to be happy.

I'm already saving money by unsubscribing to all the different bits and pieces that are 'recommended' with your Forever business.

It is all about mindset and I became extremely disillusioned with it all and that's when my eyes were finally opened.

I'm just sorry I ended up recruiting some friends into it too. For that I feel extremely guilty but I strongly told them never to buy in stock unless it's for a customer but that's not always easy when there is a minimum order and postage every time.

I now understand the marketing plan and it's extremely clever. Even the top flbots have to keep recruiting to earn the big incentives ie the bonus cheques and free holidays as you need to have a certain amount of new or open business each year. This ensures that you create your team wide and deep.

And yes it is willable to your family but they will still need to put 4cc's through your business each month in order for you to still get your bonus payments. At the moment 1cc is approx £159 wholesale or if you recruit someone with the 'business in the box' you accumulate 2cc.

Rayofhope, thank you for sharing your experience with us all. I think you are very courageous. It is people like you who have been through the process of an Mlm and come out through the other side and have shared your story, who could help others in a similar situation. I did not understand how people could fall for the brain-washing of Mlms until I read Merchants of Deception. I have a specific interest in FL as my SIL has been duped into joining it, but I know they are all the same. I thank you again for giving me and others an insight through a different perspective.

wow, rayofhope (aptly named) thank you SO much (and i'm sure this is on behalf of the others too!) for coming forward with such an honest account of your experience.

I am pleased to see your experience lines up with our MN findings & previous posts. I came here after a close friend got sucked in (she's still in there ) and i was looking for evidence to back up my claims of it being something she should avoid with a bargepole. Turns out i only scratched the surface and this really is a sinister business.

Hopefully you coming forward will encourage others to do the same... sometimes it just needs that one brave person to stick their hand up in a silent crowd before others will follow suit. Perhaps, if you don't mind, we could try and use this in someway on the Timeless Vie page? lastuser

rayofhope As the other replies stated, thank you so much for speaking openly of your experiences. It is really important for people to hear your story. You have nothing to be ashamed of, you have been cynically manipulated. The process of controlling your 'mindset' is designed to keep you obedient and keep the truth out of the public arena should you ever break free of the scam. It's great to hear that you are smiling more and can now see and think more clearly.
As someone with friends involved in FL you have truly given me a small ray of hope today. Thank you.

Might I chip in again and thank all the friends, and relatives, of 'FLP/MLM' adherents, who have contributed to this valuable discussion.

It's surprising how most people tend to think that their nightmare experience with 'MLM' adherents must be isolated, if not unique, until they encounter other people who have witnessed exactly the same sudden radical personality transformations.

After my own nightmare exerience with my brother and mother and 'Amway', my own eyes were opened when I watched a couple of fly on the wall television documentaries made in France, and the USA, in the 1990s, and then spoke to ex-'MLM'adherents who appeared in them. I only found these victims thanks to a French journalist and an independent cult advice association.

At that time (which was pre-Internet), virtually nothing had appeared in the UK media except Tony Thompson's 1993 article about 'Amway' in Time Out Magazine. 'Amway' had also co-opted a couple of greedy cult advisors in the UK who had been helping to silence the few victims and friends/relatives of 'Amway' victims who contacted them

I went to see Tony Thompson, and he showed me a stack of letters from confused, and destitute, 'Amway' victims who wished to remain anonymous. They all told essentially the same story.

In France, one young woman broke down in tears (several years after her exit), and confessed to me that her entire life had become controlled - to the extent that her 'MLM' leaders were like parents who decided what clothes she wore, what food she ate, when she went to bed, when she got up, who she associated with, what publications she read, etc.

The same French witness had lost about $60 thousands with her husband - mostly on the publications, recordings and meetings, but also on travelling expenses. She was the first person to say to me that she'd been tricked into selling her soul and that she felt like the victim of a form of rape.

She also said:

'For 2 years I totally believed that if I just said and did exactly as I was instructed by Upline, I would have everything I ever dreamed of for my children.'

Between 1989 and 1995, at least 300 thousands French and Belgian citizens were churned through the particular 'MLM' cult which this woman was cheated by, but only approximately 300 got together to file a complaint and to sue. It took dozens of critical media articles and two television documentaries to encourage the witnesses to come forward in France.

In my experience, due to the lack of witnesses coming forward, even the most well-informed UK and US Journalists are always reluctant to believe the titanic scale of 'MLM' racketeering, but most journalists I've encountered, have refused to accept that 'MLM' is criminal, let alone cultic.

seekingalpha.com/article/3638686-herbalifes-misleading-lesson-about-the-collapse-of-qualification-buying

This intellectually-rigorous article appeared on 'Seeking Alpha' today.

It was researched and written by Christine Richard (one of the former Bloomberg journalists who originally retrieved research and analysis on the Net, and brought the thesis that 'Herbalife' is a fake, and therefore, a worthless company, to the attention of Bill Ackman).

MN members should notice how various anonymous 'Herbalife' propagandists have immediately posted comments on this article.Typically, these completely ignore, or dismiss, Christine's evidence-based rational argument, and attempt to destroy her credibility, by suggesting that she's only financially motivated.

Hi rayon hope - can I ask if all the money figures in FL are made up then how can all these people on the success days say they are giving up their jobs. I also know people who are claiming to have bought big houses but are only renting them. Do you think people are outright lying about their incomes?

googlethepoodle

Are you saying that you know 'FLP' shills who are pretending to be the owners of expensive homes, when they are only tennants, or are you saying that you merely know 'people' in general who are living the same lie?

Again, if you are referring to 'FLP' shills rather than to people in general, it should be rather obvious what is the answer to the final question you have put to rayofhope.

I've been looking at 'MLM' rackets for around 20 years, and I've yet to encounter any 'MLM' adherent who was prepared to produce quantifiable evidence (in the form of income-tax payment receipts) proving that he/she had generated an overall net-profit from a so-called 'MLM business.'

All active 'MLM' adherents have been obliged to pretend to be making money in order to have any chance of recruiting others.

Apart from an insignificant minority of shills, the hidden overall churn/failure rates for 'MLM' cultic rackets has always been effectivley- 100%.

I know of fl managers that are claiming to have bought massive houses and they are renting. But if you listen to all the stories on success days on YouTube there are people with very good careers eg doctors, lawyers, etc who are ditching jobs because they have built a team with fl and earning enough.
I'm also amazed how many presents the up line buys for the down lines - that must hugely eat into profit.
What about all the trips the teams go on- do they have to pay for these as well.

googlethepoodle One thing is certain, you haven't seen any quantifiable evidence proving that any of these absurdly-familiar 'FLP/ MLM Success / Ditching the Job/ Building the Dream' Prosperity Gospel, fairy stories are true.

I had a university-educated brother who went around for years pretending to have retired from his job as a secondary school teacher thanks to 'Amway.' In reality, he had moved into my mother's large expensive home and had rented out his own little house. He was also secretly financing his 'Amway/Success' fantasies with his girfriend's salary and his savings. Even with all these unusual financial advantages: my brother never managed to lure more than around 50 recruits for a 12 month period. In the end, effectively all 'MLM' adherents abandon their pay-through-the-nose-to-play game of commercial make-believe, usually when their cash, and/or credit, runs out. In general, the more cash and/or credit they have access to: the more danger 'MLM' adherents are in.

My brother was eventually obliged to go back to teaching, his overall 'MLM' losses almost certainly ran into many tens of thousands of pounds, but he has never faced reality.

Nothing is free in an 'MLM' racket. The bosses invariably take a slice of everything from airline tickets to hotel rooms. These are bought in bulk by the bosses for knock down prices and then peddled to the obedient adherents for a profit.

They won't show you the real numbers though, will they? Meaning their actual bank balance over the silly FL cheques they flaunt. They probably forget to mention they might have a high earning spouse or some inheritance they can use to 'retire early' - even some house equity by remortgaging perhaps... You'll never know the details as it will spoil the illusion and lure of joining to potential recruits and casual observers.

At he point of being on stage in success days or whatever, a bots mind reprogramming will be pretty much complete, meaning they may actually believe they have, or are soon due something big even when, in reality, it never materialises.

However, You can make a modest living my putting every hour of every day into it, by which point the hours vs net profit = well below minimum wage, but even then most of your profits will be soaked back up into expenses which puts you in the red. The higher up you go and the ore disposable income you have access to, the greater the risk.m and harder it is to get out.

Natalie heeley is one of the uk's #1 FBO's - why not look at her published accounts on Company Check? ...

I wouldn't be surprised if NH has an ex supporting her/the children. But due to the power of stereotypes many will presume she has had a life of financial struggle because she is a single mum. A 3k+ a month maintenance figure is not particularly unrealistic. I may be well off the mark, but things are rarely what they seem at first appearance.

googlethepoodle

Just to show you how essentially-identical, all these 'income opportunity' fairy stories are, I think you should watch this linked-video from 2012 which features my friend and associate, Robert FitzPatrick.

Very interesting video.

At the end, when discussing the question "why are there are no prosecutions of MLMs?" the reason is two-fold; 1. people are too embarrassed to complain and 2. they blame themselves for their failure to make money (or rather the MLM will tell them they did not follow the formula for success).

Actually, in reality (we know that) MLMs exist only to benefit those at the very top of the pyramid, everyone else will make money, but only for those at the top.

They know that they are safe from prosecution or complaint, they just need to keep on plugging the fantasy of "you'll make lots of money....real soon, just keep purchasing the product yourself and sign up more people to do the same" never.

seekingalpha.com/article/3642176-what-will-happen-to-herbalife-when-the-government-kills-the-golden-goose

stopfaffing The confused, and confusing, reaction of journalist on this video is also very revealing. At one point, without the slightest supporting evidence, he says that 'MLMs' are pyramid schemes, but in the same breath he then says - of course some 'MLMs' are legit.

By allowing hundreds of so-called 'MLM' companies to remain legally registered in the USA, regulators have actually convinced most casual observers (including journalists) that 'MLM' must be legit and that, consequently, victims will not be heeded.

The journalist failed to mention that a stream of legally-qualified former regulators have continued to be offered lucrative empoyment by 'MLM' racketeers, or that regulators around the world have taken their morally, and intellectually, relativist lead from the Americans

The journalist did describe how some regulators seem to understand that 'MLM' is a form of delusional non-rational belief system (like a chronic gambling addiction) - the impovershed victims of which will illogically fight to protect billionaires and millionaires who are obviously stealing from them, even though their blind faith in 'future financial freeedom,' is causing them significant hardship.

Googlepoodle - I think people are earning the cheques you see. I think some are earning good money from FL but the amount that are is such a small percentage compared to how many are becoming 'business owners'

There is nothing wrong with renting a property but I think it is very hard for someone who is self employed to get a mortgage in the current climate (even if you are earning loads) so they will make out they own the fab house they're living in when they don't. People find it far more amazing to think they bought it. People want that life for themselves so join their team thinking they can make it.

I think something like nearly 1000 cheques were given out in April ranging from $4000 to over $1million (this is dependant on how many managers you helped) but there are over 9 million business owners world wide, so you can see the small percentage that are doing well. Quite a few in my upline got cheques in April ranging from $4000 to $50,000. They have also qualified for next years chairmans bonus too.

Mobiusgeek - With regards to Natalie Heeley, I found the published accounts very interesting but that will have been from the previous year. The cheque she received in April this year (after our new tax year) was over $600,000 so that amount won't show up in her accounts until next years return, so will be interesting to see her figures then.

rayofhope - I think you now have worked out how the absurd, but nonetheless dangerous, 'MLM' trick has been pulled.

Interestingly, in the 1920s, Charles Ponzi bought a sprauncy mansion to lure victims into his dissimulated closed-market swindle.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2648602/The-house-fraud-built-Inside-3-3million-mansion-Charles-Ponzi-enjoyed-ill-gotten-gains.html

As the world now knows, Ponzi was a dangerously-deranged little crook who had no money at all other than stolen money, but, for a long time, he was worshipped by his followers. Even after Ponzi was jailed, certain of his followers refused to face reality.

Similarly, in the classic three card trick, there are always shills who are seen to be winning piles of cash in order to keep luring losing ill-informed mug-punters into playing what they imagine to be an honest game, but which, in reality, they can never win, because it's been rigged. The cash which the shills are seen to be winning, has actually derived from the previous losing mug punters - and it's been stolen.

Thus, the important common-sense questions in 'MLM' rackets, are not how much illusary money is being paid out to the shills, but where has the shill's apparent wealth really come from:

• lawful, regular, profitable retail sales of products, and/or services, to the general public (based on value and demand)?

or

a never-ending chain of losing-investors' unlawful payments (based on the their false-expectation of fututure reward) laundered as retail sales (based on value and demand)?

rayofhope: as others, my thx and congratulations for your posts. One of the first MLM-critical sites was Sidney Schwartz's "Amway, the Untold Story". I only mention this as he printed all the comments he got before he closed the site in the later 90s. There are 60(!) large files of them. Check amway.robinlionheart.com/comments.htm
The only reason I mention this is that if you check any random file you will find many people who had the same experience as you - You Are Not Alone! :) (If that helps any! Best of luck as well of course)

rayofhope: "Quite a few in my upline got cheques in April ranging from $4000 to $50,000."
That's a lot of starter packs! I usually point out the revenue from the seminars - IIRC the O2 success day was a sellout. 20k people @ PS30 each, which is a probable gross profit of PS450k just for the seminar. Pays for a cheque or two...

A question (if you're OK with answering of course): Did you attend any seminars and how much were they?

I thin FL products are genuinely good products. I know a number of people,including myself who have seen a lot of health benefits from drinking the gel. The facial products are very good as well. But they have a very heavy emphasis on recruitment and I think that puts a lot of people off even trying the products.