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To many this will sound stupid but for me its a milestone thats important

65 replies

mirtzapine · 13/02/2014 09:37

Money and mental health

DW got us into a major financial pickle - she created the problem, found she was unable to deal with it and basically gave it to me to sort out.

Since the start of our financial crisis, I cut up her cards and have been giving her pocket money.

This week she's been complaining about trust because i wouldn't let her have the bank card (we only have one) to take money out of the bank. She's complained to me about not trusting her. So yesterday evening I gave in and this morning she took the bank card.

On the way to work she rang me to say that she really fancied a McDonalds.

For me by tomorrow I'll have saved 550, presently we have 570 in the bank, I've budgeted £20, for today/tomorrow for bread, milk and a few other bits and bobs for the weekend.

My DW has real problems understanding money, my grandmother would say that cash burns a hole in her pocket.

Part of the way she got us into a financial mess was by the silly daily spend on lattes, Bottles of coke, McDonalds, a drink in a pub at lunchtime a magazine or two, a novel (she's a voracious reader and can get through a chick lit novel in a day). Over a day, from leaving home for work to going to bed somehow she would easily get through £20-£50.

I've worked really hard at getting us out of the financial mess, cutting back on stuff, being frugal. I've gone for several days not eating and drinking black tea, so I've got the food and money for the children and try to get some form of savings back.

For me Tomorrow will be a major milestone I'll have exceeded my savings target, and it will mark a sea change in our financial situation, and I'll be able to push a portion of that cash week on week forwards to grow our savings and rebuild a money safety-net.

So I'm feeling pretty fragile at the moment, her ringing up saying she wanted a McDonalds for breakfast, with the cashcard has messed with my head.

I asked nicely, that she took out only the £20 and that what I've described above is a major mile stone for me and us. She told me to stop turning it into an argument. Yesterday she was telling me how much I'd achieved by saving this money and managing out income.

I'm now feeling really worried and paranoid about her having the cashcard and what might happen. I'm trying to show trust in her by letting her have the card, but I'm going to be so messed up if she goes on a spending spree.

I've got about 8 hours tils she's back home and I'm feeling really panicky...

OP posts:
mirtzapine · 14/02/2014 07:21

We got through the day as planned, no going crazy or the money burning a hole in her pocket. This is a sea change in our finances.

Is it rebellion against me being prudent? No, its always been like this for her. Before Marriage and before children, I was much the same. The moment I asked her to marry me, I realised I had to get my act together, the moment she became pregnant with DD1, I realised that there we're much bigger stakes at play than me having flash toys. Marriage and children made me grow up.

OP posts:
JeanSeberg · 14/02/2014 08:35

So where do you think you will go from here mirt? Will you gradually give her a bit more responsibility?

mirtzapine · 14/02/2014 09:12

Back to Spreadsheets... Why I think they are wrong in our circumstance.

A spreadsheet is a very good tool for doing financial models, but they are only as good as the quality of data entered and entering data as situations and circumstances change.

Our financial crisis is very fluid, creditors wanting payment, late payment fees, exorbitant interest rates that appear to be arbitrarily added. Excess charge fees.

The best way to describe this mess is like walking through an old minefield, at any time some ancient debt bomb might explode. A static once a month budget spreadsheet is no good in our circumstance.

As for the personal money thing, easier said than done. Historically (and this is part of how we got into this mess), DW would use her personal money, take money from the joint account as well as asking me to "lend" her something cos she was short. Then she discovered payday loans. Sadly this all came to light when she stopped being able to manage the mental juggling act.

I was very very temped to walk away from the problem, but for better or worse (we had the traditional marriage vows). A long discussion of how she was feeling because of the debt stress and not knowing what to do, I elected to take it on board and resolve the problems.

Between then and now DW has really got into a habit forming/habit changing mindset - she is one of those people who finds self discipline challenging.

Going back to the quality of data, It has been quite hard unravelling the mess, the disclosure stage was tough. Who's owed what where and when. We're now in the honesty and transparency stage. Sometimes, like yesterday a little red flag pops up - Like yesterday, I think "Oh No not again". But as I was hoping yesterday has become a milestone event for us.

Another point I'd like to make about spreadsheets, is that people trust in them too much... one bit of finger trouble, a number transposition or leaving something off - and it becomes totally worthless segment of data on a hard drive. Secondly, DW is not a numbers person, leaving a spreadsheet open, printing it off, sharing it on google drive - would be fine, If 1. she'd take time to look at it. 2. take time to digest it and finally 3. Took the time to comprehend it. I don't know why but it is a real mental block for her.

I'd like to also point out that, historically (back in the days of only pen and paper) a business would have a daily ledger and do month end using Cathedral Analysis book. Using a speadsheet once a month, is only doing a month end. Our budget has to be a living thing, taking into account circumstances as they change. Which is why I use a financial diary and for 30 mins every morning before everyone is up, do a reconciliation against yesterdays entries and check cash in hand and cash at bank.

You see I'm no financial genius - I have to add up my number columns three times, reason being, I'm quite bad at doing number transposition myself. I've learned not to trust my own fingers with a calculator. Its a habit I've formed by making a mistake and transposing a tens and the hundreds and getting into a real pickle.

It is quite hard work balancing a budget, and doing the subsequent analysis... why was that particular Tesco's shop more than previous, Oh yeh! we went down the sundry items isle I got a couple of mags you got a couple of book, the DC's got a couple of magazines and a moshi monsters pack. Those quick drop into the trolly items that get easily forgotten.

As another example, its evident that DD1 has had a growth spurt, the tights that we bought for school in January, no longer fit along with other clothes. Bummer, that now means another adjustment for this weekend, for leggings, tights, etc.

From a technical perspective the maths engine in Excel is pretty low grade. I've work in Financial Services for a long time writing software and I know how poor the majority of mainstream programming languages maths processing subsystems are. There is a major difference between Java, CPP .net and excel when it comes to working with numbers.

There are differences in each one rounding algorithms, to start with. Other than using a very specialist maths language such as R, the adjust mistakes made by banks and insurance/assurance companies are legion.

I once worked on an actuarial modelling system that fed values to a policy payment system. The actuaries used a visual basic application, that then generated an excel spreadsheet, which was uploaded into a java based policy system, which then spat out an xml file that was hoovered up by a database using c# which then fed into a payment system using asp.net & c#.

Once in place the business trusted the system, until a year end audit showed they had massively underpaid, the board went nuts and I was tasked with tracking down the bug. Sadly, each subsystem had a bug which compounded the next in the chain.

So for me pen, paper and a TI calculator are the best things for me to get us to a stable position, then to ensure some form of money safety net.

OP posts:
tribpot · 14/02/2014 09:34

OP, a number of MNers, including myself, using the budgeting software You Need A Budget.

Personally I think you are massively overthinking the problems of using software to help you - fundamentally nothing can help you in a situation where one spouse is wilfully overspending. Fortunately she has shown that she can be more disciplined. One swallow doesn't make a summer, however!

YNAB is a proper budgeting tool, that is it is not concerned solely with historical reconciliation but also with planning and forecasting. And rolling with the punches - although you need first to work on minimising the number of punches you get.

Best of luck - I hope you have turned a corner.

mirtzapine · 14/02/2014 09:34

JeanSeberg To answer your question, I have asked DW when she feels that she could be responsible with money; as I pointed out the stress of juggling and hiding did actually take a big toll on her. I was hoping for late spring, she has told me that not until autumn.

OP posts:
mirtzapine · 14/02/2014 09:53

ok I just looked at you need a budget... I'm not over-thinking the use of software. I'm saying software isn't necessarily necessary. A pen, a diary and a calculator is just as good.

I will say that the ynab site is good because they are offering a course and a methodology. But again its only as good as the data entered and the not hiding stuff.

If I was to start using ynab with a siloed mindset and lying to myself about what I was spending and how I was budgeting and the values entered, i could still get myself into a mess.

OP posts:
Hoppinggreen · 14/02/2014 10:22

Speaking as someone very similar to your wife I doubt she will ever be ready to be honest.
If we managed to save £500 I would be thinking " yay, £500 to spend"
I would also probably resent you for the short but necessary leash I am on and object to having to ask permission to a bloody coffee!!!
I would probably also come up with some very cunning and elaborate ways to beat the system.
I agree completely with what you are doing and why OP, I am just giving you a heads up.

MaryWestmacott · 14/02/2014 10:28

OP- I think from the last couple of posts I've seen the problem, you don't do budgetting, you do managing. This works for you, but it's harder than budgetting, and even though at no point in my life have I had significant debt (other than a mortgage) or been in a finacial mess, i think I would get that way very quickly if I tried to manage money they way you do, and if this is what you are trying to teach your wife, she might also struggle.

I would find it very difficult from yoru examples to not know what we could afford to spend each week in the supermarket - when you said it's different week to week, ok, but you should knw when you walk in the door of Tescos what your rough budget is, and sorry but if you are dealing with various creditors and late fees you shouldn't be buying any books or magazines! For example, we have a budget for our spending in total in the supermarkets/butchers etc for food and all household items, it's £120 a week. I usually spend under, once or twice a month I'll go over if something we buy regularly is on offer (like washing liquid we use or nappies) but I will mentally knock that off the following week's shop. If you on line shop or if you do scan and shop as you go, or just walk round with the calculator on your phone, you can add up as you go so it's not just "put what we need and want in the trolly, see what it comes to at the till".

Siloed thinking doesn't work for you, but for most people (and your DW might be in this) this is the best way to manage your finances, you budget for each thing, it's only an issue if any one of the silos goes over, but then you budget for a 'float' to allow for that and try to allow your silos alittle more than they need in each.

I could let you know roughly what we budget for any one bill, but I couldn't tell you (other than the food shop I've got coming from the on-line order today - £118.90, and my phone which I was just texted about, that's budgeted for £18, it was £16.50 this month), what our actual last bills were, every couple of weeks I'll have a look at the joint account, generally I only note are things above or below the budgeted amount, generally it's below as we run a 'over budget' policy so that we build up a buffer in the joint account, it doesn't need constant adding up and is easy for anyone who's not that interested in money management to do.

However, we've had set finances for a couple of years, new bills have been added in easily. We don't do personal spending out of the joint account, having our own accounts for that, and if I'm at the supermarket and want to buy myself a book, that's from my money, so I'll put through two transactions, one for the house stuff and one for me. If you are still in a 'flux' stage, then I can easily see it would be hard for you to plan yet.

Good luck, it seems you have a long way to go and are still in the "fighting" stage not the "settled" stage.

MaryWestmacott · 14/02/2014 10:34

Oh and I was rather like your DW when I was younger, although I quickly realised I was and got a savings account, I arranged for all bills to be paid the day after I got paid (so it wasn't in my account for long), then moved the spare into my savings account that day too, and only left in my current account what I was prepared to let myself spend over a month, which I'd devide into 4 or 5 (depending on how many weeks ina month) and then tell myself that was my budget, I'd over spend often at the start of hte month, but at least it didn't damage the rest and slowly I got better.

And if you don't have your DW's buy into the budget (which means you'll have to set one, just spend the minimum as possible and try to save as much as you can), then agree, once she stops feeling guilty (which she will) she'll start feeling resentful.

mirtzapine · 14/02/2014 11:08

MaryWestmacott: You are right, yes at this moment I'm firefighting and managing just... my goal is to get toward a stable situation and then start putting in place an provisional budget... I think I'm around six weeks away from that point, but one or more" money shock" and it will push the timeline back

I have been very aggressive with the use of money, paring back where I can. My example of the Tesco's shop is a past thing which started to get us into this mess in the first place. Now its very different. I set a target amount for Iceland, Turkish Supermarket (the veggies, pluses and pastas are dirt cheap and good quality) and Tesco's. Now only one of us goes shopping... trying to go to Tesco's with the DCs' in tow...

We are only just at the point where we can stop robbing peter to pay paul

Sadly, this now reminds me of my grandmothers life as a kid... I would often wonder why she would be eating cabbage and spuds, while my grandad got the steak. I've not forced DW into a life of penury, rather I'm trying to encourage her to see ways she can spend less, eg me making a packed lunch that looks like a fancy wrap from a deli, with a bottle of coke that I've bought in bulk at a fraction of the shop prices.

It is fudging the problem a little, in order to make her feel ok about packed lunches I have to disguise it... not really good, as I feel I haven't completely got buy-in from her to get over this, but its a step towards.

Hoppinggreen: Yes, I know, its a nagging worry at the back of my head, and if the tables were turned I would be doing/thinking the same. I don't like the fact I've been cast in the role of "Solver" but some-ones got to do it.

OP posts:
BranchingOut · 14/02/2014 11:09

It does sound as if you need to consider raising your income. Is there anything you can do freelance from home, especially as your children are school age?

Our household income is very good, but we have the system of individual accounts and a jp

BranchingOut · 14/02/2014 11:17

Joint account, sorry. We also, each of us, have quite strict mental limits on what we spend.

Unfortunately, until the debt is sorted out you/your wife just need to stop buying some of this stuff:

Books - library or charity shops
Lattes - take a flask
Taxis - car share or bus where possible, unless it can be claimed back
Magazines - read MN instead!

Best wishes.

BranchingOut · 14/02/2014 11:20

Oh and I realised what a rip off soft drinks were when I began just drinking water. They are charging a fortune for something that is basically water anyway!

mirtzapine · 14/02/2014 11:48

BranchingOut: we had a similar system until the shit hit the fan and yes we have cut back on all that. It was the strict mental limits where it all came apart.

OP posts:
MaryWestmacott · 14/02/2014 11:57

OP - it does sound like you are fighting for your family and I know it's hard if the other side of your partnership isn't treating this as a partnership.

I agree with teh others, you need to find a job, because long term your DW could drop you in it again, if you know she's not someone you can't trust financially, you don't want to be faced with her doing something like this again and you not feeling you can ask her to leave because you need her wage and don't trust she'd pay anything to you if you don't have control. Ultimately, if it's her wage, she can decide to get it paid into a different account and just give you what she wants, there's nothing you could do about that. You are reliant on the goodwill and cooperation of someone who's proved they can't be trusted with money.

If your DCs are school age, can you look for part time admin roles that should minimise the amount of childcare you need? anything to just have some additional funds that aren't reliant on your DW. Even more so if her wage can't be garenteed, if she doesn't get paid if she doesn't work on a zero hours contract, you are very vunerable if she gets sick, and you don't have the funds to cover it.

Good luck, I guess the next 6 months will be tough.

MaryWestmacott · 14/02/2014 12:00

oh and something that occured to me earlier, is your DW the sort of person who's always late for things as well and always rushing?

The inability to properly see the money struck a cord with me as I used to be like that with timings and was one of those people who was always rushing in late for appointments/diving on trains as the doors were beeping to a close, bemused because it was a 10 minute journey, having not factored in that it was a 10 minute drive, that it took time for me to get from my sofa in slippers, to in the car, wearing my shoes, coat and carrying my bag containing everything I needed for the day, then it was a 10 minute drive, then I had to park the car, buy a carpark ticket, go back to the car, put that in, lock up, walk to the place I needed to be.

I had noticed it's often people who are crap at budgetting money are also crap at budgetting time as well. I've had to teach myself both!

BertieBottsJustGotMarried · 14/02/2014 12:11

Oh how funny you say that Mary because I am exactly like that. I can think "OK I need X minutes to get to Y place" but totally forget to factor in the time it takes to walk from the sofa/computer/wherever to the coat rack, lace up my shoes, find my phone/retrieve it from charger, check I have everything in my bag, find my glasses, maybe go for a quick wee, put coat, scarf and hat on and check I have my keys. For some reason I think this takes no time at all, I've been meaning to time myself actually doing it because I've found when I factor in things like this it's much easier and less stressful. I hate being late yet I am ALWAYS late. Drives DH mad when I say "Yes I'm ready" because I think all of this last minute stuff takes no time magically.

Also getting over my dislike of being early Confused I now think "Oh great I'll be early, that means I can play a couple of games on my phone!" or - the bad one money wise - think I can treat myself to a coffee/£1 mcdonalds snack burger etc because I have time. It's not so bad, though. I can easily spend £10 over a week or something by frittering but nothing major.

blob24 · 14/02/2014 12:35

My SIL is similar to your DW, op. She is a compulsive shopper, she needs to buy stuff or treat herself every single day. It's a serious addiction and she badly needs to see a counsellor. I think she is trying to fill a void and feels reassured by spending and pretending to be rich. Instead, she and DB are very nearly bankrupt. No one dares suggesting she needs help. When confronted, she just becomes hysterical.

MaryWestmacott · 14/02/2014 12:44

Bertie - yes, I was very similar "ready to go" woud mean in my head "I'm in my bedroom, with my hair and makeup done and dressed" not "stood by the front door, about to go through it, wearing shoes, carrying bag, wearing coat" it was effectively "ready to get ready to go" - I didn't factor in the full things I needed to use my time for, and it seems the OP's wife doesn't factor in the full list of things she needs to use her money for, the £570 isn't just money they have to spend, it's money that's allocated to something they have £20 allocated to fun spending and then £550 allocated to something else, rather like thinking "oh, I have £1k after the rent and bills are paid, so I can spend £1k" without thinking within that £1k you have to buy food and have to put petrol in the car, and have to save some for next month when the car tax runs out or the month after when it's one of the DCs birthday etc...

moonbells · 14/02/2014 12:56

mirtzapine perhaps you ought to write a book or a blog about how to see where all the money goes and how to stop it. Get lots of financial sites to link in and you'd have an income.

I have a friend who needs someone at home to put the brakes on, but she's single... have been trying for years to stop her crazy without-thought spending on all sorts of stuff she could get vastly cheaper elsewhere (or didn't need at all!).

Managed to save her £70 a month a couple of weeks ago by badgering her to phone her mortgage lender and see if there was a better rate to switch to. It'd never occurred to her!

mirtzapine · 14/02/2014 13:18

This is sort of moving to an area that I do find very interesting. Its a kind of self situational behavioural analysis. Having come for a military family and background discipline has been a major factor in my life. Creating an environment of self discipline is pretty tough, even more so if you haven't got role models or external factors that encourage that form of mindset.

The habit of being sensible with money/time can be quantifiable (it can be expressed as a number), but you have to set to and see the long term benefits/goals, a habit, for example takes approx 66 days to bed in (a recent study - its no longer considered to be 21 days), you can loose a habit within days or hours as factors and priorities change.

It's like why I set myself a goal of this week getting to Friday with £550 in the bank, in my head £500 would have been equally acceptable, but I kept that to myself. I actually hit this morning with £551.08.

There is also a need to be able to visualise what's going on with the numbers. Another study has shown that beautiful mathematics has the same effect on the parts of the brain that beautiful art or beautiful music has.

When you are taking time to get somewhere, you need to visualise the map, and what the timings are. For me getting around London is easy as I have a mental map of the city and all of its various transport networks and its median times, but that has come from experience. Experience teaches us all the variables and dynamics in play with getting from A to B.

Again, with money, I keep a visual representation of all our "stuff" in my head, in is green, out is red, unsure is blue (the variable and dynamic stuff) that way I can work with the mental limits. As someone expressed above.

Sadly it falls apart when there isn't full picture and that's what happened to us... my metal image of our finances was at odds with the real one and DW was trying hard to paint a different picture.

Fortunately, now we've got some form of alignment, its pretty fragile. I don't think DW has the necessary things to self discipline, or use will power as she never had a role model to fall back on

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 14/02/2014 17:31

OP
Have a look at my spreadsheets ....
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_money_matters/1987219-SPREADSHEETS-for-Debt-Control-Budgeting-Mortgages-etc
feel free to download and adjust
but they are about forward planning, not historic records

Mandy2003 · 14/02/2014 19:51

Will you set up one of those One account things where at the end of the month an agreed amount is transferred to a savings account or similar? Then you could make access to that with 2 signatures only.

LauraBridges · 15/02/2014 08:12

You are being very sensible. It is always better if two people marry who are similar - both wasteful or both into saving or whatever. It is hard when people. Luckily we were similar and voer 20 yeras lived within our means, saved a lot, bought buy to lets, bought a big house, paid school fees, worked 2 jobs each. It paid off.

If your silly wife is so keen on McDonald's get her a job all day Saturday working there in addition to her during the week job and then she'll be earning not spending on Saturdays.

RedHelenB · 15/02/2014 12:51

I wouldn't want to go to work & not be able to buy a MacDonalds breakfast occasionally. Work out what salary is over after the bills/food/travel costs are paid & then pay a third or so into savings, a third to you to spend how you wish & 1/3 to dw to spend as she wishes.

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