Need help to estimate living expenses coming from abroad

[scubacat2292]

Hello Mums! My family (me, husband, 3 kids) are looking to move to the London area in the next few months as part of a job transfer. We've just found out my DH's salary, and are having a heart attack over the amount of taxes we will pay. My first question is does everyone really pay the taxes the tax calculator says, or do we have any chance of getting some of that money back at the end of the year? He would make enough to get us into the 40% range, but the calculator didn't offer me the option to add in 3 kids, so I'm wondering if I can count on any sort of return there? For example, here in the US our tax bracket is technically 32%, but once we get exemptions for our mortgage, kids, sales tax, etc, we end up only ACTUALLY paying closer to 12% or so. Any chance of that happening in the UK, or should I really count on 40%?

Second question is that I would love to get some idea of what my regular expenses might be? We are looking to find a 3 bedroom flat or house in a good neighborhood. I'm hoping to find something for around 1500p per month. I don't know if that's realistic, but I've checked out some rental sites and it seems possible. If we can make that happen, it comes out to 35% of his take-home pay. What would the rest of the monthly expenses come out to? Somebody mentioned council tax - what is that? Also, I assume I need to pay water, garbage, sewer?, phone, cable, internet, electric. Is there a way to get an idea of what the costs of these might be so I can determine if we will have enough money?

Thanks so much for any help!

NotquintAtAllOhNo

From your post on 24th October saying go for it to your post on 26th October saying it will be an experience for Scubacat's kids, you seem to have been downgrading England and London as being the last place on earth any sane person would wish to be. Good grief ! Scubacat has acknowledged ALL the advise she has received in the threads and I know that you will say that you were only providing a realistic picture of how you see things, but EVERYONE knows life is'nt a bowl of cherries 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Scubacat and her family will come to a decision that suits them all . After all, she only asked for our advice about living expenses !!!

True!

This thread has slowly made me question my own sanity in staying here.
If it was not for our work, we would be off like a shot.

It was really Portofinos honest approach that made me question my own role and my advice on this thread. So easy to say GO for it. But when considering our own problems both moving to Norway, and coming back, then I felt I should perhaps look a little deeper than just say "GO, it will be an experience" especially if the OP and her family will have to budget so carefully.

I guess I went beyond the scope of the thread, and that I am sorry for.

But so many threads go beyond the exact question the op is posing?

I guess I am too negative to post.

Good luck Scuba!

I'm actually thrilled that this post has moved above and beyond my original request. I need advice on just about everything and have certainly been getting it. I didn't mean in any way to imply we were moving to London for the hiking, tho! Not at all. My kids like to hike and camp and such. I don't. I'm actually a bit of a diva - I prefer the spa thank you very much. :) What I was trying to say was that we won't feel bad for not living in the hustle and bustle of the city. We are very much suburbs people. The only down side is that here my husband actually works in the suburbs, and there he would have to commute an hour into the city. Not ideal, but one of his sacrifices for the experience. Our reason to pick London is it is the most convenient location for launching our travels around the UK and Europe, and English is the native language, which is the only way my husband would go.

Charlearose -I think Spain would be great, too, but I'm not sure I could afford international schools, and that would be a requirement. Plus, my husband just isn't thrilled with the idea of, on top of all the cultural adjustment for us and the kids, to then add in the hardship of not speaking the language, not being able to read the signs, not understanding the people around you, etc.

I sent an email today to the Herts council asking for info on school availability. We'll see what they say and then I'll have some concrete information to base our decision on. Thanks everyone for the comments!

Thing is quint, if they're only coming for a couple of years, OP would be able to go back and hike the wilderness in the Pacific Northwest (I live in Oregon) in no time at all. The Lakes and the Peaks are beautiful and completely scenery to Washington State. Two years is incredibly short, unless you are really miserable.

We originally came to the US for 3-5 years and have been here 4 and a half already and still haven't done all the things we wanted to here, mainly because dh doesn't get very much paid time off. So in reverse, we have the larger American house with 3 bathrooms, and I dream of something smaller! And we are lucky enough to go skiing a lot as we live near a ski resort. I don't regret moving here, but it isn't much cheaper than the life we had in UK if you factor in all the doctor's co-pays and trips back to the UK to visit grandparents. Food is definitely not cheaper but that may be because we are 3 hour's drive from the nearest big city.

It can be a lot of fun if you go with the idea that you will definitely come back. That way you think, sod it and make the most of the different opportunities that there are.

If you look on www.rightmove.co.uk and look on the map of the particular property at the bottom, you can click on primary and secondary schools and then look the school itself up.

Good luck!

I don't mean to be negative at all, but I know from my own experience that life is not always so rosy on the other side. Op is talking about taking LESS money, moving to a smaller house, DH getting an hour commute each way every day - and that itself can be hell on earth. Plus the presenteeism culture and long working hours in the UK. Schools in the SE are over subscribed and there is a good chance that she may be offered 3 separate schools - in 3 different places - all with the same drop off/pick up times. Quint has a made a very good point about open spaces in the UK. There are some lovely places - but they are quite a drive away. Also travel within Europe for 5 people is more expensive than OP seems to think, particularly within holiday periods - which realistically is when they would be able to travel.

I do get what Quint is saying . Having lived in Switzerland for 4 years Snowdoina was distinctly underwhelming! However there are plenty of other ways to get your "outdoorsy" thrills - canal boating, exploring castles and monuments, Dartmoor, New Forest, Peak District et al all pretty unique to UK/Europe.

Hope you get an encouraging response from Herts otherwise it could be a hard slog working your way around the Home Counties LA's. Would the relocation agent not do some of the enquiring for you ?

well then, you can walk up the Effiel Tower but about half way your thighs will burn so you might want to think about the lift...

You don't have to go far out of London to hit 'country' - for example in Kent there's some really good mountain biking on our doorstep, I can see the Downs from our back bedroom, yet DH's commute is door to door to his City office less than an hour. (Which you'll find some people who live in London have those sorts of commuting times)

If you are going to move out, there's also the possibility of your DH working from home one day a week.

I have been thinking about your plans quite a bit and this is what I would like to add.

In common with many of the other posters, I think it is highly unlikely you will be able to get anything like your current lifestyle in the suburbs of London. The unfortunate fact is that if there are suburbs with large family homes, fast transport links to central London and great schools, then they are rapidly 'discovered' and prices rocket. Remember that many families in and around London are bringing in two large salaries, so the price of a 3 bed family home in many popular areas is anywhere from £500,000 to £750,000 plus. This has a knock-on effect on the price of local services, places in schools, everything.

My suggestions are:

1. Try it out in a different way: have you considered doing a five or six week 'home swap', preferably during the long school holiday in July-August?
   No worries about schools, plenty of time to explore parts of London/England and maybe take a short-hop to Europe. Your DH could do it via a combination of unpaid leave and an exploratory visit to the London office. Or maybe you could come ahead with the children and he could visit for a shorter period of time? I suspect that you would probably get a far nicer place via home-swap than you could afford to rent.

2. Do it, but take the view that you are living an entirely different lifestyle for a period of time. Have you considered living in two bedrooms, but closer to the centre of London? You would be urbanites - getting the most out of all the parks, galleries, museums and attractions that the city has to offer. This would get you better transport links and would mean that you don't need to run a car. Before you think I am crazy, it is worth recalling that lots of flats in London are in large period houses, so a two bed flat might actually have more floor space than a modern three bed house in the suburbs. Oh, plus high celings and fabulous windows that mean that you don't feel hemmed in. For example, you might get a two bed flat on the top few floors of a period house, but over several levels so the stairs and hallways make it feel more spacious. Put the boys in the large master bedroom, you and DH sleep in the smaller room. DON'T necessarily bring all your furniture - lots of places are actually rented on a furnished basis.

3. Consider home-schooling one or more of your children, to relieve the restrictions on where you can live?

Best wishes.

tadjenny - Yup, that's the way I look at it. 2 years goes by so quickly in my opinion. We will make the best of whatever comes our way and it will all be great because we know it's not forever.

Haven't heard anything from the Herts people yet. I don't know if I will, so I keep moving forward. Someone on another thread posted a link to this great document that showed all the data for the herts schools including how many spots they had, how many kids applied, how many got their ranked choices, and where all the kids who didn't ended up going. So now at least I might have an idea of who may have space and who likely won't.

LIZS - I don't know what the relocation agency will do for us. We haven't been put in touch with a contact person yet, but hopefully that will happen soon.

BranchingOut - The home swap is a brilliant idea! I checked out a site today and it looks amazing. But my husband came home and made a very good point - we could still do that from our new home in London! And there were a lot more people interested in swapping for a London home than a Seattle home. :) I am really torn about whether to live in the city or out in the suburbs. That is a tough one for us. City living would be amazing, but honestly, it's not really our scene that much. And I couldn't put all three boys in one room. They are too far apart in ages and the older one needs his privacy, his personal space from his brothers, and he has a much different sleeping pattern. Believe me, we've done it on vacations and it's not a great scenario for more than a couple of weeks.

On the flip side - is there anyone who wants to home swap for 18 months??? I'd be happy to trade and that would save everyone loads on rent. :)

Just remember you wont be able to home swap your rented uk house - your lease will most likely not allow it.

But you cannot afford a London home. You can afford a home in Guildford or somesuch. And as up says - you would not be able to swap it. I really would think twice about this and save your pennies for a blow out European vacation rather than uprooting everyone. A week away for 5 people is going to cost you £3000 for travel, accommodation and spending money at least if you are thinking city breaks rather than driving to France in mobile home.

Where is your sense of adventure ladies??? LOL Can you honestly tell me that if you or your husband came home with an opportunity to move to the US or to another country of your choice for a limited time you wouldn't do it?

My husband posted this on my facebook page today:
Life is like a book. Some chapters are sad, some happy, and some exciting. But if you never turn the page, you will never know what the next chapter holds.

So thank you everyone for your support and points to consider, but life is too short to sit at home safe and snug. And if any of you live in St Albans and would like to meet in person, just send me a message.

Another "foreigner" in London here. Been here more than 20 years now.

There are lots of hidden extra costs which can creep up on you.

One thing no one has mentioned is that food and groceries are far more expensive in the UK than many other places inc US.

And you will need medical insurance for the first six months of residency as those coming from outside of the EU are not entitled to NHS treatment until 6 months of residence and NI contributions have been fulfilled. This would even include UK nationals if they had worked outside the EU or Commonwealth for more than a year and were returning.

If your DC have SEN they will need to be assessed in the UK before that could be applied to them and they would have to wait for that for their needs to be met. I understand its not a short process.

It's common for US companies to pay for accommodation as part of an expat package for the first year. This is due to all these hidden costs and issues you will encounter. If your DHs company isn't offering this, I would question the whole move tbh.

Also is your DHs company offering his return to the US after the two years are up? And is his job back in the US guaranteed to still be available to him?

I ask because I used to work for a US company in London who frequently "seconded" employees from US for a couple of years but once the two years were up, they were told they were not needed in London and there was no job back in the US either and no expat transfer back so they were stuck here with no job and no way home. Some suffered real hardship as they had to sell their US homes to pay for their families and possessions to get home.

If you are not being offered a full expat package with a contractual job to return to, then do not do this.

You have had your first taste of dour Britishness - don't say you have not been warned

Oh and on the schools front i would forget email and call them;call then call them - and get a name!

I found groceries more expensive in the US then I did in the UK, but then I wasn't just buying ramen noodles and Hamburger Helper. Buying decent food here is expensive so I don't think OP would notice the difference if she moved to London from Wa. Good luck OP - doing something wild like moving continents is amazing!

scuba - I DID do it. It took me 2 years to settle and make friends. Do it for the adventure as long as you are aware that you will be lonely, worse off and have an exhausted dh who could end up standing up on a train for 2 hours a day.

skandi - we expected everything to be more expensive there. We know the dollar is weak against the pound and so we anticipated that. Medical insurance is covered thru my DH's company.

upinthehills- I stand forewarned! thank you! As a matter of fact, the education authority did return my emails promptly and sent me a link to this great document where I can see all the vacancies at all the schools in the area. The document is updated regularly, and obviously things will change often. But in the meantime, it gave me a great idea of where the kids might be able to get in and where they clearly won't. And a sense of what our options will be once we finally get ready to apply. I am, for the most part, reassured that all will be okay for school.

tadjenny - thanks!

portofino - I understand. I'm not worried about being lonely. I have all of you ladies to keep me company. And if my husband decides he has had enough of the commute, then he will have a big incentive to find himself a job back here and move us back. Lesson learned.

Have you thought about moving to kent? It's supposedly the garden of England, has pretty good weather considering, v good schools and pretty near to London (many commuters to London, between 20-55 min depending on where you live).

Canterbury to St pancreas (which is next to kings cross) is under an hour, Ashford to st pancreas is 30 min. There are many grammar schools around. Canterbury is 20 min from the sea... Plenty of shopping, coffee shops, scouts, clubs etc.