Need help to estimate living expenses coming from abroad

[scubacat2292]

Hello Mums! My family (me, husband, 3 kids) are looking to move to the London area in the next few months as part of a job transfer. We've just found out my DH's salary, and are having a heart attack over the amount of taxes we will pay. My first question is does everyone really pay the taxes the tax calculator says, or do we have any chance of getting some of that money back at the end of the year? He would make enough to get us into the 40% range, but the calculator didn't offer me the option to add in 3 kids, so I'm wondering if I can count on any sort of return there? For example, here in the US our tax bracket is technically 32%, but once we get exemptions for our mortgage, kids, sales tax, etc, we end up only ACTUALLY paying closer to 12% or so. Any chance of that happening in the UK, or should I really count on 40%?

Second question is that I would love to get some idea of what my regular expenses might be? We are looking to find a 3 bedroom flat or house in a good neighborhood. I'm hoping to find something for around 1500p per month. I don't know if that's realistic, but I've checked out some rental sites and it seems possible. If we can make that happen, it comes out to 35% of his take-home pay. What would the rest of the monthly expenses come out to? Somebody mentioned council tax - what is that? Also, I assume I need to pay water, garbage, sewer?, phone, cable, internet, electric. Is there a way to get an idea of what the costs of these might be so I can determine if we will have enough money?

Thanks so much for any help!

just skimming so apologies if someone has already answered the point.

Yes schools do just shut the doors! You will be allocated somewhere, but this could be in the next town (extreme example, but it can happen). Moving to be near a great school is not the end of the process. Speaking to the schools is essential.
City centre school options may be closer (if you lived in London), but some options are going to be inner city tough too and perhaps not quite what you would wish for. I don't think this would be such a concern out of town.

To add to the positive votes for St Albans.. it is also a cab ride away from Luton Airport which if you want to get to Europe is another plus.

I moved to Guildford two months ago. My OH commutes to London. He hates it. He didn't mind when we did a "test" fortnight before we moved, but his ideals of reading/working/relaxing on the train were forgotten when he realised that there is rarely a seat, and its very busy. He resents paying for it.

We live in a lovely house but I wouldn't choose Guildford again. We wanted to be close to "things", but we aren't. London is an annoying train ride away, Woking is a half an hour drive when you add traffic in, Guildford is very much a clubbing town and I'm uncomfortable taking the youngsters out after dark because of the huge prominence of the strip club.

We found estate agents difficult around here, very money grabbing, and deposits are huge. We paid £3800 in fees and deposits, and our second choice would have cost us £4500. Make sure you've budgeted okay for that! It was a bit of shock for us.

Be wary of access to train stations (we are between two but there is big hills either side so walking isn't really possible, even if it's technically only a 25 minute walk) and if you will be using Guildfords main station, leave extra time for waiting at ticket machines/random ticket checks. The trains tend to be early or late but you work out the routine pretty quickly.

Other things...doctors around Guildford have been a bit pants so far, I've really struggled with getting medications etc, they are disorganised and very busy. All the schools look lovely on the outside but some have very odd reputations, so it's worth talking to local parents and trying to get here in time to get your first choice. The people are friendly enough. We've had gritters out already so they are quite on the ball about that, although they won't go down anything but main roads. Internet and phone have been fine, there are a few supermarkets spread around so there's plenty of choice, and getting around is fine as long as you've got a car.

If you do have a car, add petrol etc onto the equation because it's a lot more expensive here than in the States. If the children will be going on a bus to school, make sure you've added that in, because buses are expensive here and the school transport in Guildford fills up quickly. Taxis charge a base rate of £6 plus whatever journey length - £10 for a 10 minute journey, £25 for a 20 minute journey as an estimate.

I think that's all I can think of - I'm happy to answer any other questions if I can help! I wish we'd had someone to ask about Guildford before committing to it, it's a scary move.

Scuba, only the wealthy, or those who dont demand that much in terms of creature comforts, (like nice car, many holidays, branded clothing, cinema, theatre trips, etc) can afford to rely on just one salary....
In very many families, both mum and dad have full time jobs, especially if all their children are school age! In which case, being a stay at home mum is a bit of a luxury. Some times mum opts to work part time.

But people have hectic lives, with early starts, one of the parents take the kids to school, the other might pick up, unless they are old enough to make their own ways. Then, home from work, sort out dinner, take kids to activities, ensure the children do their homework, tidy the house, laundry, etc. Many families where both mum and dad are working employ a cleaner to come in once a week, or every second week.

Some say that it is impossible to live in London on less than a salary of 80k for a family of 4 or more. Others are frugal and live quite happily on half that.

Caja - I really appreciate the information on Guildford. I think it's priceless to get first hand feedback on someone who has made the move. On the plus side, we've ruled out Guildford, for the exact reasons you mention. The commute seems too far and too expensive, and we've heard horrors about the train ride. We've relocated our search to the St Albans area.

Notmadeofrib - Here's my plan. Let me know what you think. We don't have a move date yet - haven't even started the visa process. Likely we will be arriving in January or possibly even February, so I'm way too late for any regular school process. We will find a nice house close to some good schools, and join the wait lists. They will assign us a place wherever that might be (my oldest in secondary, my two younger ones in primary) and we will do the best we can for the 4 or 5 months left in the school year. In the meantime, our proximity to the closer schools will put us somewhere on their wait lists for my oldest (who will be needing Year 9 in the fall) and my middle child (who will be needing Year 7 in the fall). Hopefully, although we wont be assigned our choices through the normal process, they will be high enough on the wait list due to proximity that sometime during the spring or summer they will get a spot. If one gets a spot, then the other moves way up the wait list. My oldest also has special needs, so I'm going to explore the SEN process and see if I can't get him in somewhere through that, and then that puts my second child up on the wait list. Either way, we hope that we get in somewhere better in the fall. I'm hopeful. :)

Upinthehills - You're right. You really are. It's one of the things we are still struggling with. Do we go? Or do we not go? On the one hand, we could just visit. On the other hand, it's really not the same thing. We have a good savings we will draw from to make ends meet and to pay for travel. We will probably end up losing a lot of money after the two years, but it is, after all, only money. In the end, we land on the side of "life is too short not to take a few chances."

Will you be letting your US house while you are away?

I'd be a bit cautious about the salary/tax calculator. There are several "extras" which may not show up immediately and I'd say although your dh would be on PAYE the chances of it not being accurate given that you arrive mid financial year are high, particularly if he gets any bonus or one-off relocation payments, so be prepared for him to have to complete a Self Assessment form by Jan 2014 for the period December 2012 to April 2013, and am not sure how his US income since April 2012 may be taken into account. There are no exemptions and only a personal allowance of £8105 at 0% to offset. As you have not paid NI in UK you would probably not be entitled to Child Benefit even if your income fell below the level.

As to costs, allow £200 pcm for Council Tax (annual amount payable pro rata over 10 months April to January inclusive which includes refuse collection), our monthly water bill is about £25 pcm on a meter but not all properties are metered and the rate will vary by area, gas/electric currently at about £125 pcm but likely to rise and again varies by supplier, phone/internet about £40pcm, Sky tv £25. You may need to find a dentist privately as even though NHS dentists exist they often have full lists. If you plan to have a car then be prepared for all related expenses to be higher (ie petrol over £6 per gallon). Similarly you may find that you cannot make as many leisure trips as you hope.

You know what - what with all the info you have given - I really WOULD NOT do this. Not for 2 years, as an experiment. I moved from the UK abroad and it took me that long to settle down. There are huge issues with catchment areas for schools and SN provision in the UK. I can see you ending up with a knackered husband and NO MONEY to do this exploration of Europe you have in mind. The cost of living in Europe at the moment is obscene! You are being very optimistic about school places and could end up with 3 children in 3 different schools.

No way on earth would I give up a comfortable lifestyle and settled children to move to Guildford and all this uncertainty. Sorry to rain on your parade, but being an expat is not always easy. I would not do it for a paycut. I would not put children through it.

I meant to say - children of that age....Moving to a different country - all very exciting. The reality is - same shit, different place. Except the shit is harder to manage and there are cultural differences, and you are far from your family and friends. And you are exhausted by the weekend and don't have the energy for travelling round. Or there is a club, or a birthday party that takes up the weekend anyway. And you have to make a REAL EFFORT to meet people and make friends.

Sorry - this sounds really negative. But you are talking about making yourself WORSE off to do this. If if was mega-bucks kind of stuff, I would still give the same warning but could understand why you would want to do it. I had a lovely dream of us all sitting round the table eating nice foreign food and spending the weekends popping off to visit places within a 2 hour drive. The reality is somewhat different.

I would say that St Albans is a good compromise location, your DH could get the train directly to Farringdon and walk from there (about 10 mins walk to Chancery Lane - if you dont need to pay for tubes, just overground, his monthly commuting costs will be vastly decreased, he can get an Oyster card where he can pre-load it with £10 or so for one-off tube trips).

It's on a fast train to London as well so he'd be looking at about a 30 minute train journey in. Bare in mind parking around train stations with a fast service to London tends to be both limited and expensive, it's worth factoring that in when you pick your rental place, you might find that while you would pay more to be within a mile of the station, it might balance out not having to pay for the parking. (I also am pretty sure that's the train line that goes up to Luton airport so it runs pretty much though the night, worth checking when last trains from London are, it's not much use saying "oh, we can make the most of London nightlife" when you realise last train is 11:30pm and after that it's going to take hours to get home)

Useful links for finding your way round would include: www.nationalrail.co.uk/ for overground trains and tranport for London journey planner

It might also be worth checking places on the train lines from Liverpool street station, which is on the Central Line (tube) - same line as Chancery Lane.

Living in the outskirts, you dont even get the feeling of living in London. It will just be a crap house, every day life, long working hours (People here frequently leave home at 7 am, and dont get home from work until around 8-9 pm) The uk has the longest working hours in Europe... Then you will be traipsing into London on a train during the weekend, to explore the museums, and urban life, juggling catching up on housework, homework and kids weekend commitment with activites/sports and friends.

This type of move, to explore London or Europe, only makes sense, if you live in London, not a commuter town....

This flat is less than your budget, walking distance to Barnes Bridge station, taking you into Waterloo, on bus route to Hammersmith, witch is pretty central, with bus and train in all directions. overlooking the River Thames and in fact a lovely location, a village feeling in nearby Barnes village, and shops and restaurants of White Hart Lane (Not the White Hart Lane of Arsenal Footclub fame, which is in North London)

This one is in southfields, again, train a short ride to waterloo, tube and bus into central london. This one is actually furnished. Same area, 4 bedrooms and furnished.

I would look in areas of London Sw13, SW14 and SW15 which covers Wandsworth (Putney/Southfields) and Richmond (Barnes/Mortlake)

That's a bit harsh ! I've come across several expat families who have very happily lived outside London. It is about expectations though, most commuter towns are very suburban and unexciting, and you will be an hour or more away from the iconic sights.

Maybe harsh.

But to be honest, London is great, but not that great.

London is great if you have a lot of money, if you live reasonably close to the center, if you live in an affluent area with little crime. Quaint and picturesque villages (like Richmond and Barnes). For the rest? You need to have been born there (here) to appreciate its charms.

I am speaking as a foreigner who has lived nearly 20 years in London. (Aside from 3 years back in Norway)

If you are a foreigner, coming to London, it is different.

You have the taxes to work your head around, the differences, not just cultural but the way things work. There are children to uproot and unsettle, take them out of their schools, their friendship groups and their activities, and help them resettle in another country, which is very different, but the language remarkably similar. Help them find their feet in school, their neighbourhood, find activities they like, people to hang out with, etc.

London is cold, and damp, horrendously expensive, long murky winter with rain rain rain.

Houses are small, cold and damp. The traffic is pretty awful. The roads are narrow and congested. The city planners never realized just how big and convoluted the town would become, and what was wide for horse drawn chariots a hundred years ago, is now barely accommodating the cars. Even Cairo has better traffic flow than London!

Going away for the weekend? Yeah, unless you have more than £100 per night to spend (a family of 5 will most likely need two rooms, so double that) each long weekend is most likely going to cost you between 300-400 pounds, and that is talking without transport in the uk. Every half term will possibly set you back a £1k to somewhere in Europe by plane, plus spending money and accommodation. Realistically? How often are you going to afford this? 3 times? 4 times? Flight tickets to anywhere in Europe double and triple in times during any school holiday.

Who wants to come to London, bust their guts working long hours, to live in a small cramped cold house in some cheap outskirts?

You need to think long and hard before you do this, as it is likely to be extremely hard.

What is really in it, from a work perspective to just come here for two years?

Quite, quint. And to give up a 5 bed house in Seattle for...I used to budget 1000 for a week half term holiday for 3 of us. No more. And even Ryanair bargains are not what they were.

Tis a good point actually - that within the US air travel is relatively cheap - not the case within Europe.

Tried to get tickets to Gran Canaria, 1200 for the 4 of us. We were hoping to stay at my sister, to cut accommodation costs...

Holiday by plane to somewhere in Europe, and a stay in a 3-4 star hotel will set you back 3-4k for a 10-14 day stay, for a family of 4.

Flights to Norway to see my family, is usually 1k return, each time.

It is also worth saying that it's better (in my experience) to be completely out of London in a commuter town than be say, in zones 4-6, which have the disadvantages of not being close in to the centre, the victorian planning, often crime problems etc rather than being in a separate town which normally has it's own feel/character, but you can commute into London for work. However, then for you and the DCs, you won't have moved to London, you'll have moved to the SE of England, very different culturally. I don't live in London anymore but it's less than an hour door to door for DH's office, it's completely different feeling to friends who live in the outskirts of London but their daily commute is about the same as DH's. (fast overground trains vs shorter but stopping tube trains)

Has anyone discussed expat packages with your DH? Is there any additional help available? Any relocation services?

oh and I would make sure you factor in, the joy that is taxable benefits. Often things in your package that the company pays for (like private health insurance, dental insurance, car/travel allowance etc) are viewed by the treasury as a benefit that while the company pays for, the employee has to pay the tax on them as if you'd just been given the cash equivlant. Not too much, but it means, for example that our "free" dental plan via DH's work costs us £15 a month.

and while you'll be entitled to NHS, you have very little hope of getting an NHS dentist in London, you might for the DCs, but an NHS dentist for adults in London is as rare as hens teeth.

DontmindifIdo: We're also moving from the US to Guildford soon. One of the things on our to-do list before we leave the States is to visit the dentist .

I understand that some of you think we're insane. And when you look at all the down sides, it does seem crazy. And the schools issue is a real honest concern.

But for the travel side, that's not an issue. We were planning to fly to europe for a two week vacation this coming summer, and the cost to get the 5 of us to Italy was $7200. That was JUST AIRFARE. At that cost, I could afford to take 5 trips around Europe once we get to London at $1000/flight. If it costs £1000, then maybe we cut that down to four trips and still have money left over. And ON TOP of my airfare, I was going to have to spend around $5,000 for the travel expenses once we got where we were going. So our travel will not be compromised by our move to london - just getting the 5 of us over to Europe is so expensive, that being in London to start with saves us a ton of money.

The weather doesn't scare me. I'm from Seattle. Seriously, if you've ever been here then you must understand that. Rain, drizzle, gray skies for 8 months of the year, summer highs in the 70s and winter days where it is dark when you get up and gets dark again at 3:30pm... these are not problems.

As for not being IN London, that's not really a problem either. We are not city-living people. We had the choice when we first got married to live in downtown Seattle and we chose the suburbs. We like it out here. We were never much into the social scene, clubbing and bars, or the nightlife. We like to be in green areas where we can drive to a park or head out into the countryside. My boys are into scouts, and they like to camp, hike, and do charity work. We would look at heading into downtown London like a day trip - something to do on purpose with the intention of seeing some of the sights now and then. Our reason for picking London was that my husband's company has offices there. They also have offices in Norway (brrrrr!!!!!!!), Ireland (fine, but even farther from the mainland for travel), Spain (I speak spanish, but my DH and DC do not), or Denmark (admittedly, I haven't looked into this one much). England seemed like the obvious choice. It truly is just a launching pad for our other travels, and a neat way to do something different for a couple of years.

DontmindifIdo - We have a full relocation package with my husband's company. Moving, allowance, relocation services, temporary housing, etc. It's a great package. The only thing they don't do is find my kids a spot in schools, which is clearly too bad!

In the end, the only REAL concerns I have are the schools. It is very true that I do not want to make things substantially worse for my kids. I want to offer them the benefits of this opportunity, and we are willing to make sacrifices in exchange. They have friends, but being that they are three boys, they tend to spend most of their time together anyway. I'm sure they will make new friendships there. They are also excited for the challenge. The two younger kids have already started sleeping together to simulate sharing a room (how cute is that?!). They have english friends here, and think it will be great when they will be the ones with the accents instead. They are excited beyond reason to see some of these places they have only heard about or seen on television (how did they get the olympic rings on the london bridge? is buckingham palace really a palace? can we climb to the top of the eiffel tower? is legoland denmark as cool as legoland san diego? why is the tower in pisa leaning?).

As I've said, my only real, true, honest, keep-me-up-at-night issue at the moment is the schools.

Okay you are mad but i see where you are coming from.

You need more info on schools. Lets say St Albans is number 1 location. You need to talk to the school admissions department in Herts County coucil. Explain your situation and ask them to talk you through in year admissions. Ask for a list if all schools in the borough with places in the year groups you need. Ask for the number of places. Ask about the ctiteria for in year admission (distance from school etc).

Be persistent- you may find the person on the phone less than helpful - do not be put off or deterred. Call again if you don't get the answers you need.

I would call today - you need more facts on the schools to make a decision.

upinthehills - That was exactly my next step. Thanks for the name of who to call. I wasn't sure. I was going to call them in the morning (it's 1am here and I'm headed to bed!) and find out where there are places and where they would put us at this moment. That should give me a real idea of what we're talking about and help us make our decision. :)

At dinner we were talking about not going, and my 10 year old says "We have to go! We will regret it our whole life if we don't go." From the mouth of babes...

To be honest, if the boys are hiking nature loving, and you are not into city life, choosing London over Norway is bloody insane!

Even if you like suburban living. Because thats all you gonna get.

Hiking in England is a bit of a joke. It is something we do because it is something easy to do as a family together. But even the boys have realized it is nothing compared to walking along deserted beaches for hours, or hiking up to 1200 meters from sea level and down again, or long paths through forests, and spending days crossing tundra between peaks walking from cabin to cabin in the wild. Taking out your fishing rod and catching river salmon or trout.

Your boys sound a lot like mine. (Skateboarding is an urban activity they have taken up in England) They like hiking, mountain trekking, fresh or salt water fishing , spending time on the beach jumping from rock to rock trying not to get their feet wet (this you can also do in England ) tenting in the wild, cycling in the mountains, foraging for blueberries in the automn. And lets not forget skiing. Cross country and downhill.

In England, it pales into a dusty mud filled treks along farmers fields, through "forests" or woodland which is no less than a triangle between main roads that it takes 30 minutes to walk through, with rubbish, and road dust. And even that is busy...

Hiking in the uk, unless you go to the Lake District or Scotland, is like this:

You drive a couple of hours, park your car. (Less if you are in Surrey as opposed to south west London) You have downloaded to your Ipad, or printed out your hiking guide (try register with walkingworld.com). You spend 10 minutes along the road, an hour crossing a field, then another 10 minutes along a road, then 20 minutes crossing some woodland, another 10 minutes along a road, 40 minutes crossing a field, some woodland, and if you are lucky you are back to your car, as otherwise you have an hours walk along the road, or you catch a bus back to your car. When I say road, I dont mean paths, but proper tarmacked roads where cars and coaches and lorries whizz past at break neck speed!

Your life sounds pretty good where it is!

Coming to London to go hiking in the English country side? I think you have been watching too many Jane Austin adaptions. England is extremely industrial and built up. Even the Peak District, The Lake District and Wales with Mount Snowdon are tiny areas, which are mostly farmland as opposed to nature, when you compare it to the big American National parks and wilderness, or Norwegian wilderness. Think about it, Great Britain is very small geographically, with 67 million people! Norway is slightly bigger, and with 5 million people.....

My cousins husband had a bit of a mid life crisis when he hit 40. He decided to walk across Norway through the mountains, not following any roads, but sometimes head down to villages and shops for supplies. (Not that often in fairness, as he brought his rifle for hunting small game, and his fishing rod for fish) It took him 6 months, then he could not be bothered and he came home and asked for a divorce. They had 5 kids. This summer, they remarried, after 10 years apart. My aunt wore the same dress to their second wedding as to their first. But I digress.

You just need to have an open mind and prepare yourself that it will be 2 years of something very different. Britain is tiny. It takes my husband just two days to cycle from the east to the west. Now we are back here, we live for the holidays back to Norway, where we can spend time in real nature.

Not a very kind impression of England there. What about the Lakes? The Peaks? The Dales? The Devon Coastal Path? The New Forest? And that is before you get to Scotland, or Wales. I manged plenty of hiking adventures around Southern England when I lived there. Because the distances are not great you can travel to these places for the weekend, camp and enjoy an outdoor life. Maybe if you are looking for rugged stuff then the major urban centres of any country are not ideal. However, there is a huge amount to see and do only an hour or two from London (or St Albans). Oh Dear! OP, do not listen. That sounds like "macho" posturing and a tourist advert for Norway, where I would love to go, but do not need to savage England in order to appreciate Norway's beauty.

By all means do not listen to my "macho posturing".

I have lived half my life in England, I love London. But I would not move here for the hiking! My description below was very inspired by our attempts at walking in Surrey, Hampshire, the South Downs, Wales, Cornwall, Devon. Dont try kid yourself that it can beat hiking in Scandinavia or the US for that matter.

I moved to London when I was 20. Moved back to Norway 15 years later, and returned to London after 3 years away. I know full well the difference between England and Norway, good and bad, and the tax implications of moving country, and the effects moving and uprooting has on kids. I am just realistic.

London is great for exploring London. England is a good base for exploring Europe. But it is not good for the Great Outdoors.